Early Faceted Snuff Bottle -European Cut

[RW]

 Snuff was very expensive at the early stages in the 18th C, and the miniature bottles like this example allowed the buyer to spend less on the amount of snuff needed to fill one. These bottles were also ideally suited for gift giving of say an exotic snuff blend, so the giver could spend more on an attractive bottle as part of the gift, and less on the expensive product it held

Amber glass multi faceted bottle, barrel shaped with a pair of eight petal flowers centered on roundels or more aptly a double headed drum shape, one on each end, trellis work on facets at the center of each main panel

The link to an Imperial workshop example from the Bloch sale described of an amber faceted bottle with similar design elements of the 8 petal flower on a roundel but on each of the main panels was given earlier in this thread and is given again below for convenience

http://www.e-yaji.com/auction/photo.php?photo=2392&exhibition=17&ee_lang=eng&u=7993,131


The extensive crizzle, and manner of faceting w/ the roundels suggest an early 18th C date.

Very fine lapidary cuts are present under a magnifying lens all around the facets with uneven planes among some of the faceting, however by the debris present in the glass, I am guessing the bottle was also mold blown,  a straight drilled throat with lapidary rings, beveled footrim- similarly shown earlier in the thread with the ruby red example, flat foot. scattered bubbles(round) some debris

Condition:  well worn with chips around the neck and mouth, fine crizzle around found under magnification in the interior

Height: 3.8 cm

Mouth diameter: 7.9mm

[George]

Another interesting bottle...

Thank you for keeping this thread alive !

[RW]

 Thank you George,
 
 Glad you find it to be an interesting one as I do - it's also a 1st miniature for me. the bottle arrived the other day -and the timing was good to fit it in here

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Kevin,

      What do you base these statements (reason for small bottles/cost of snuff/etc.) on?
And if the bottles were Palace Workshops, wouldn't the cost issue go out the window?
I had a Kangxi period royal blue on clear overlay Palace Workshops. The crizzling was very fine, and not at all like the one you posted (or the Bloch example posted on a dealer's site). The crizzling on yours resembles more that on bottles Tom showed me, modern bottles from the 1980s.
  Best,
Joey

Snuff was very expensive at the early stages in the 18th C, and the miniature bottles like this example allowed the buyer to spend less on the amount of snuff needed to fill one. These bottles were also ideally suited for gift giving of say an exotic snuff blend, so the giver could spend more on an attractive bottle as part of the gift, and less on the expensive product it held

Amber glass multi faceted bottle, barrel shaped with a pair of eight petal flowers centered on roundels, one on each end, trellis work on facets at the center of each main panel

The link to an Imperial workshop example from the Bloch sale described of an amber faceted bottle with similar design elements of the 8 petal flower on a roundel but on each of the main panels was given earlier in this thread and is given again below for convenience

http://www.e-yaji.com/auction/photo.php?photo=2392&exhibition=17&ee_lang=eng&u=7993,131


The extensive crizzle, and manner of faceting w/ the roundels suggest an early 18th C date.

Moulded, finished by lapidary and fire polished, a straight drilled throat, beveled footrim- similarly shown earlier in the thread with the ruby red example, flat foot. scattered bubbles(round) some debris

Condition:  well worn with chips around the neck and mouth, crizzle around the interior,

Height: 3.8 cm

Mouth diameter: 7.9mm

[RW]

Dear Joey,
 
  the sapphire blue bottle has very fine crizzle, thank you for mentioning this

You've cited what your own experience had been in observation of crizzling on an early bottle -  Can you cite other examples or even quotes on that which would support this as a dating tool? -  I have not ever heard this before. it seems to be an interesting observation- however-  crizzle is a natural process in time, starting w/ a problem in balance in the glass recipe w/ an in adequate level of lime and too much alkali. The alkalis leach out to the surface. If the glass is subject to changes in humidity conditions, the salts on the surface crystallize and any water in the glass network will dry out and cause the surface to crizzle-  under static conditions in temperatures and humidity, glass with the imbalance in the recipe will not show crizzle-

 I am unsure then how the fine crizzle description would fit w/ extreme temp / humidity changes, or little to no changes in a static environment - we cant measure those factors by degree of crizzle (for further discussion please see below- fine crystal like crizzle is present on the interior-  which I can only see w/ a magnifying lens)

Setting that aside,  the wear, the degree of faceting, with a period flower pattern and roundels, and as a miniature, it would be inappropriate to compare this bottle to one from the 80's, even if it's only to a reference to the nature of crizzle when we cant keep all other variables affecting it the same- temp and humidity. 

After the 1st decade of glass bottles, the fad for the European bottles had ended w/a preference for more obviously Chinese examples, until the end of the 19th C when there was a revival in interest in European styles, with larger revival examples shown earlier in the thread

 I thought that the size factor, requiring more or less of an expensive product was a generally accepted hypothesis and reasonable one - regardless of the cost of the bottle. 

Thank you for raising these points
Best, Kevin

[George]

I agree with Joey's observation, and was curious as well..

Here is what glass looks like when we think of crizzling, alkali ,  chemical composition , and natural causes. At least with Chinese glass. I agree that what we are looking at within your bottle, do not think would be considered crizzling.

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,687.msg4636.html#msg4636

There is quite a bit of information within that topic..

[RW]

 Thank you for the link-  I am sure we are looking at different things-  perhaps only debris shows in the photo - some of it black/brown-

Under magnification - there is a fine crystal web on the interior which would be hard to see through the facets w/a photo-  but it's there

[George]

 Thank you for the link-  I am sure we are looking at different things-  perhaps only debris shows in the photo - some of it black/brown-

Under magnification - there is a fine crystal web on the interior which would be hard to see through the facets w/a photo-  but it's there

If it is there, then would sure be a crizzled glass candidate..

I think also this bottle blown into the mold , and I can't say I see any touch up by a lapidary.

[YT]

Dear Kevin,

It will be great if you can take some time and visit the more well known collections when they are put up for auction. You got to feel it, touch it to understand the differences.

An example of crizzling is this
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2015/snuff-bottles-from-mary-george-bloch-collection-part-x-hk0576/lot.156.html
The crizzled effect made the base bottle white. Cannot see much of the original snow effect even looking at it with a loupe.

Cheers,
YT

[RW]

Dear YT,
 Fantastic piece, very nice... I enjoy visiting the various auction houses and major galleries during Asia week for just such opportunities

George,
  The many facet corners are well defined and crisp, as are the many other edges along the different planes. They are unlike what I would expect of moulded glass in general without later sharpening by the lapidary once removed from the mould. Along with that are a few small chips at those edges which can be seen under a magnifying lens, possibly caused by lapidary work.
 The crispness also helps as a dating tool, and is consistent with the other elements of this example which might be expected in others from the early period: miniature size, multi faceted, fine crizzle, decorative roundels ... The later Qing period  edges on facets as mentioned earlier in the thread lost that crispness.
Further evidence of lapidary work is around the beveled footrim, with drill rings inside the throat of the bottle.

Best,

Kevin

[George]

Sorry Kevin, but have to stick to the belief this came straight out of the mold, and no touch up..

In this case, unlike another recent bottle you shared, this one does not appear to show drill marks.. I think what we are looking at is the swirling motion while blowing into the mold. Notice how the air bubbles are part of what is swirling, maybe giving you the impression of drill marks..

Maybe I am just not able to view for some reason, but not seeing a pic for the base..

[RW]

Thank you George for commenting  As a lapidary yourself I have to go by your observations

The bottle appears to have been fire polished as mentioned above. there is some streaking present under magnification which would eliminate sharpness of cut glass, leaving crisp lines though

[George]

I saw the comment about "fire polished", and am not familiar with this process being used 18th, or 19th century China glass shops, or European.  Looked around Google a bit, but only finding reference to newly produced beads.

Do you have anything you can share with me about fire polishing earlier glass wares ? 

[RW]

Hello George,
 
 Fire polishing of glass as we know it as is a smoothing technique from ancient times which required a flame to raise the glass surface to a melting point. The fine cut overlays on the Beijing glass bottles were polished after cutting was completed.  I am researching that aspect of glass polishing. the blown faceted bottles similarly were also polished after the follow-up cutting-  so some follow-up work was needed here to make the corners sharp after taken from the mold. Possibly some of the corner or edge detail is lost from the photos, but I can feel their points touching them. The rings on both sides at the top in the front view 1st photo show the finest edges in the picture. Most blown faceted bottles were finished by the lapidary and then polished so it would not surprise me to see more evidence of polishing on other facted examples.

2 links given below of early examples which were fire polished, taken from the Corning Museum of Glass
From the Silk Route region, an Eastern Mediterranean Beaker, blown from a 3 part mold, dated 75-125-99" :

http://www.cmog.org/artwork/beaker-146?search=collection%3A6893a59e14702274bae16c5db324a6c7&page=62

Although no examples are pictures in this link, the Museum makes reference to fire polished glass beads. The beads dated to 1300 are from Malaysia, which had established trade relations with China centuries prior to that

http://www.cmog.org/artwork/238-beads?search=collection%3A6a13ba7f7402bd65bb09c6172ce641b5&page=6
 
An example from Italy 1600-1699

http://www.cmog.org/artwork/goblet-80?search=collection%3Ac9fe12b3e012953407cb94059f458514&page=18

5/8/16:  as a side note to the fire polishing technique on crystal faceting, it  is more often associated with pressed glass examples, which was 1st developed in 1825. Surfaces on cut glass and polished facets are flat while fire polished surfaces appear concave with general lessening of optical clarity- clearly this example exhibits none of the character of the lesser method of fire polishing
A few examples from Corning Museum's on-line collection
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/salt-dish-59?search=collection%3A03cf60e2efeb031fef3de8bb20b1abe3&page=43

http://www.cmog.org/artwork/plate-232?search=collection%3A03cf60e2efeb031fef3de8bb20b1abe3&page=47

[George]

Thank you for the above Kevin...  It is in your hands, so you may well be correct about the touching up..

If this is the appearance of fire polishing, can't say have ever seen on any Chinese bottles.

Is the crizzling you see within your bottle in any way similar to the appearance for the Corning example blown from three part mold ?

[RW]

 George,
  Your questions and those by others gave me the direction I needed in further research-  as always many thanks to all

I have found that those highly polished streaks as mentioned earlier which led me to believe the bottle was fire polished are actually lapidary cuts- tiny grooves smoothed over by hand polishing around the facets can be seen under magnification. The corners and edges are crisp and highly polished which better photos show. Some of the tiny chips on the facets as mentioned above appear then to have been done in the lapidary work, quite possibly from imperfections in the glass w/ the bottle then carefully polished smooth. So I have changed the description above.
And, w/the presence of debris in the glass, even w/ only a few scattered bubbles,  the bottle was more likely blow moulded and then carved w/the unevenness in definition of some of the facets which on close study can be seen in the photos. And, the unneveness may also be an indication that some of the facets may have been almost entirely carved
 
Yes, the crizzle is very fine with clutter along the walls in the photos

What we know then is that this miniature double faced drum bottle was executed in a manner consistent with the period and was both moulded and then carved by the lapidary. Unevenness is evident in some of the faceting indicating heavy carving in defining some of the facets,  possibly to areas left blank by the mould, a faceting style that is consistent with the early period as well as w/the use of Chinese decorations in way of the roundels with 8 petal flowers on each "drum"  face. Fine crizzle is present on the interior under magnification. Chinese neck and throat. Hand polishing done in typical Chinese manner (not fire polished) The small size would also be indicative of an early date when snuff was very exotic and expensive as mentioned earlier. 

Best,

Kevin


 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Kevin,
 
     After your questions about sources for the idea that fine crizzling is usable as a dating datum, I started to look into the subject.
I called Mr. Yang in Honolulu, to ask him (he was the one who told me about the fine interior crizzling being an issue with Kangxi period
Palace Glass Workshops products), but he couldn't find any published references, and i haven't either.

    I see that I missed a lot of further material - I will read it all over Shabbat.
Whatever the end result, thank you for expanding this subject.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

[George]

Want to add that I think with a lot of research and chemical make up from different proven examples of both European and Chinese, it would not surprise me in the slightest some sort of microscopic guide could result for collectors to go by.  Showing a very close connection and to Shandong glass.. Also would not surprise me to find examples with chemical analysis that show an actual  mixture of French origin made glass and that of Shandong .. Actually I keep typing Shandong, when I really mean to reference the Boshan glass shops..

Stumbled onto this bottle to add here that suggests possible Shandong connection,

From the Hildegard Schonfeld collection, March 2013.. Christies auction..