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Early Faceted Snuff Bottle -European Cut

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Author Topic: Early Faceted Snuff Bottle -European Cut  (Read 3334 times)
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Pat - 查尚杰
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« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2016, 08:09:15 pm »

Hi Kevin

Interesting info here!  Can you please re-post my pics?  I have a hard time locating them.  Thanks. 
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« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2016, 08:14:57 pm »

Hi Pat,
 
 Yes, I would be glad to


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« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2016, 05:55:04 pm »

Really wonderful and informative information Kevin..

Thank you !
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« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2016, 07:09:04 pm »



 George, 

 Many thanks for the post Smiley  Really very glad you liked it

Best,
Kevin
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« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2016, 08:10:29 pm »

Thanks for reposting Kevin!
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« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2016, 12:26:04 am »

Thought would add this interesting bottle to your thread here Kevin..

It popped up from a collection of Chinese snuff bottles. Of course European, but a nice example ..


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« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2016, 04:33:28 am »

Hello George
 Thank you for posting the example, a nice one. And, from the picture with the hand behind the bottle, we have some perspective on size,  pointing to at least one difference between the Euro bottles and the early Chinese bottles which were smaller - depending on the size of the hand in the photo-  it might be above 7-8 cm in height

 However, w/out a clear picture of the neck and mouth areas it may also have a Chinese influence in the manner in which snuff was to be taken from the bottle. In what I can see in how the neck was drilled, it might be possible that it was made to accept a spoon and stopper, which would be more of a Chinese bottle, regardless of origin, and if so perhaps show a reversal in sphere of influence from one of Euro taste to Chinese
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« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2016, 04:59:38 am »

I will get a few more pics for you Kevin.. Thought you might enjoy this one.. Also will get the exact height, but I think your spot on with your guess..
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« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2016, 05:39:19 am »


 

Yes, thanks I am fascinated by the changes in details which were made to the early homogenous European bottle styles to make them better and to suit Chinese preferences, so I look forward to seeing some more photos, maybe we will see some more of those details in your example- any crizzle?  please take some of the foot area.

  I may be away from the computer till tomorrow
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« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2016, 07:11:47 am »

6.2 cm and I see no crizzling.. I think the European or Jesuit glass makers had a better handle on the alkali ingredients. Have never seen one of these crizzled.

Just now realizing the shoulders are sure rough ..


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« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2016, 11:20:14 am »

Quote
Just now realizing the shoulders are sure rough.

George,

It is my impression that such surface texture and appearance is an indicator of molded glass.  Either the surface imperfections remaining from the molding process are so deep that they could not be polished out, or it could be that during the cleaning and buffing process the worker did not hit that area with the same attention as the other surfaces on the bottle. 

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2016, 11:51:50 am »

Quote
Just now realizing the shoulders are sure rough.

George,

It is my impression that such surface texture and appearance is an indicator of molded glass.  Either the surface imperfections remaining from the molding process are so deep that they could not be polished out, or it could be that during the cleaning and buffing process the worker did not hit that area with the same attention as the other surfaces on the bottle. 

Charll

Dear Charll,

I have a different impression on the bottle, I will vote its carved instead of molded glass, we can see the drill mark well on the inside of mouth.

Steven


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« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2016, 04:14:23 pm »

 
 What I can see George, from the new pictures is that the short unflared neck was straight drilled by the lapidary in a manner that would accept a stopper and spoon for the Chinese method of snuff use. The larger European bottles had tapered throats suited for pressure fitted pronged stoppers.

The bottle could be both mold blown and then carved- the roughness that you mentioned around the shoulder could have been left there by the lapidary, but the center patterns appear molded. The lapidary would have removed extra glass once the bottle was removed from the mold to form the pattern around the shoulder
 
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« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2016, 11:03:32 pm »



The bottle could be both mold blown and then carved- the roughness that you mentioned around the shoulder could have been left there by the lapidary, but the center patterns appear molded. The lapidary would have removed extra glass once the bottle was removed from the mold to form the pattern around the shoulder
 


Yes, I agree.

For what ever reason the bottle was created like this and with an uncommon drilled throat for European, I still doubt it intended by the glass maker/carver to be used as a snuff bottle.

I can not explain the connection, but I sense a lazy lapidary and or glass maker that resulted in the rough shoulders and the throat, that combined, still make no sense.  Like a snuff bottle these are simply signs of "what is wrong" with a bottle. Compared to what is right.  But taking everything together, right and wrong, we can surely still know it is European.  And then like you, I believe it molded, and touched up. With the exception of the pattern on the front and back. Those look untouched after being removed from the mold..

 
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« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2016, 04:09:55 am »


 Thank you George, for the post- this is an interesting topic which you bring up-  My thoughts are for the very same problems that we see in the lack of finishing in the lapidary work, the bottle would appear to me to be a later snuff bottle- 1890's+ if not made in Europe for that market, then possibly Shandong, and from the European settlement there, where many of these were made copying the early works-the work was just left too untidy as a perfume bottle, and w/ that we would also agree that it would not have been done to Chinese tastes

 The early bottles were European in styling-  it's what makes them Chinese from the details that I find so intriguing.  This flattened pale sapphire blue bottle at the start of the thread, a hand blown example was very well executed for transparency and smoothness-  fire tooled with all around smooth clear surfaces

And, it also has the distinctive faceted footrim detail that separates it from the flat footed European bottles. this characteristic of the bottle was executed very well, and more elegantly as an early bottle than the example shown earlier in the thread which was produced at the palace workshop at the mid to late 18th C
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« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2016, 04:21:25 am »

I agree with, and find fascinating the connections you find interesting.. Although I am still learning the connection between Shandong, and European missionaries, etc, it is sort of a little talked about niche within this transition between missionaries, Shandong, and even Imperial glass wares..  It's a fascinating trail, and bottles like this and others you share are in that little grey area that is less appreciated than the more obvious European, or again, more obvious Chinese wares directly influenced by the European glass makers.
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« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2016, 04:42:32 am »

Want to add that I think with a lot of research and chemical make up from different proven examples of both European and Chinese, it would not surprise me in the slightest some sort of microscopic guide could result for collectors to go by.  Showing a very close connection and to Shandong glass.. Also would not surprise me to find examples with chemical analysis that show an actual  mixture of French origin made glass and that of Shandong .. Actually I keep typing Shandong, when I really mean to reference the Boshan glass shops..
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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2016, 05:27:49 am »

 Many thanks! I think we agree this is an area many collectors have foregone for the obvious when these early bottles, at the root of the many different paths taken in the history of snuff bottle making, as I have tried to show here are really Chinese in the details in terms of tastes and preferences w/ closer study of the bottles from the 1st few decades
 Also, one premise in collecting in this area, even if such a test comes available would be that if it is Chinese in quality and in the details,  regardless of origin then it would be a Chinese bottle
( aware many collectors will not agree on such a premise, however in the lot notes section of the e-catalogue on the 1st Schonfeld example,

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/an-unusual-european-style-cut-glass-possibly-shandong-5658772-details.aspx?pos=6&intObjectID=5658772&sid=&page=3&lid=1

It states "Although this bottle may be an import from Europe to meet the demands of the Chinese market, it is also possible that it was made at Boshan, Shandong province, in the late Qing dynasty, when some German glass workers were involved with the glassworks there"....and that bottle sold w/in the estimated range )
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« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2016, 01:32:03 am »

Off topic just a bit, but interestingly, the side panel for this Bi Rong Jiu, Shandong bottle on it's way to me is just as poor. Have never seen a Boshan glass bottle look like this before..


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« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2016, 07:09:31 am »

 That could be a great find-  hope to see a post on it
In collecting the Boshan bottles which are not IP's- the emphasis on quality becomes greater, and in that may even help date it.  Many fakes from there, bottles that were produced even after snuff taking declined around the 2nd decade of the 20th C were also of poor quality, giving then an early Republic dating on this bottle based on the roughness we see
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