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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
July 21, 2018, 06:52:40 am
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about dating plain bottles

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Author Topic: about dating plain bottles  (Read 448 times)
Niccolò
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« on: December 12, 2015, 08:31:28 am »

Dear friends,
in these days I have more time to partecipate to the forum and I would like to ask you a general question: which features can help in dating a plain bottle?
For example, this brown glass bottle... The form is typical Mid-Qing, or not? Can you find other features that can better define the age of such bottles?
Thanks in advance,
Niccolò


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George
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« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2015, 10:01:24 am »

Really a beautiful bottle Niccolò..

I am waiting on an auction to start, so will come back and post a couple answers for you later unless someone beats me to it..

Would like to ask if I am seeing some inclusions ( maybe indication of quartz instead of glass ? ) on the front of the bottle in the first pic.  Maybe those are some kind of reflection ?
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Niccolò
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2015, 03:46:26 pm »

Thank you George.
You are right, the bottle has some inclusions which could indicate that the material is quartz. Otherwise they could be cracks in the glass, I am not sure about it...
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George
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2015, 11:27:50 pm »

Sorry took so long to reply Niccolò.

The slightly sloped shoulders, and thin shape to the bottle is beautiful.  Very consistent with 18th and 19th century bottles.

We also look at how the foot rim is carved.  An evenly carved raised foot rim can indicate early bottle. Not 100% about yours  being perfect, but also not saying it is poor either.  Tom has some wonderful examples of foot rims on several bottles he has shared .. Have a look through and you can see how perfect the foot rims are on his. Also notice how like yours, the foot rims follows the contour of the base of his bottles.

Then it is also nice to see the surface of the mouth to be slightly indented/concave compared to being flat.. Yours appears flat. Also we like to see a bevel to the outer edge of the neck. Yours seems to have, but a bit uneven.

It is not that it necessarily takes all of these combined to convince us a bottle is 18th/19th, but all, or any combination of the above are what we look for.

I have no proof, but wonder if the way the inner neck is carved can aid in dating.  Although hard to tell if this is the case with your bottle because I am looking at a slightly downward angle ( last pic ) when I see how it appears that the inner carving of the throat of yours matches what I am talking about.. 

You will need to inspect for yourself or post better pics that can confirm yours to be smoky quartz, but my first "guess" is that it is. 

With the pics you posted, I am comfortable dating yours 19th even though I am going solely on the lovely shape, and fairly nice carved raised foot rim, even though it lacks a couple of the other above details .

Lets see what others can share with you  Niccolò

It really is a beautiful bottle !!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 04:35:51 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

Niccolò
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« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2015, 04:45:40 am »

What an instructive answer, George! Thank you very much.
Your observation about flared carved throat on old bottles is very interesting and convincing.
Give a look to this smoky quartz bottle, one of my favourite. Also this one presents the main features described by you, but it  has a much better hollowing...
Regarding the material of the first bottle I posted, I cannot understand if the small signs in the material can be small bubbles or natural inclusions. (I post a bad picture, the only I could take with my poor instruments).
Another question: if it is glass, can be the features described by you applied also to a  glass bottle?
Thank you,
Niccolò


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George
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2015, 05:52:01 am »


Another question: if it is glass, can be the features described by you applied also to a  glass bottle?


Yes, applies to glass as well.. As long as the glass bottle was carved from an ingot/block and not blown free hand, or into a mold.

You may have to use a magnifying glass to distinguish between inclusions and air bubbles, but you should be able to tell.. If you can see no air bubbles at all using magnification, then I would start to look closer to confirm those are natural inclusions which would tell you for sure that it is quartz.

The smokey quartz bottle in your last post is outstanding !
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 06:51:11 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

Niccolò
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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2016, 05:12:01 am »

Dear all,
I would like to add another example to the discussion.
This is a small white glass bottle (5,5 cm high) with a flat foot and flat narrow sides. The mouth is slightly concave. The bottle is very well hollowed and has a nice patina.
Do you think that the general shape can suggest a quite old dating?
I would like to know your precious comments about it.
Many thanks,
Niccolò


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George
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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2016, 11:32:45 am »

My guess is this is quite new..
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2016, 06:06:58 pm »

My guess is this is quite new..

George, upon an initial look that was may thinking also.  But know imagine the bottle as a enameled Guyue Xuan glass piece.  The configuration is about right.  I think the body form would  still indicate a later Guyue Xuan style blank, and thus I'm not yet sure whether it is an old or modern bottle.  If I get the chance I'll try to review some to the Guyue Xuan glass literature to see if there are any bottles in this form. 

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

YT
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2016, 08:02:38 pm »

Dear Charll,

You do have a point about the close resemblance.
My observations as compared with this type 'bottle shaped GuYueXuan' is the lack of a foot and slightly too round.

So have to agree with George about this bottle being new.

Cheers,
YT
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Niccolò
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2016, 06:50:02 am »

Thank you all for your interesting remarks. So your arguments against an old dating are the non-protruding foot and the general shape which does not find any comparisons in glass bottles?
N
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George
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2016, 08:59:12 am »

Thank you all for your interesting remarks. So your arguments against an old dating are the non-protruding foot and the general shape which does not find any comparisons in glass bottles?
N

There are examples of flat based GuYue Xuan bottles. So that is not a deal breaker for me, but the shape is unlike any GuYue Xuan glass bottles I can find, and the color of the glass seems off as well.




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