A strange black bottle

[Niccolò]

Dear all,
I found this strange bottle in Italy. In my opinion it is quite old, but I cannot identify the material. It has the color of jet, but it is not. I would exclude some organic material. Too heavy and it has some very small reddish inclusions. It scratches but with difficult. I cannot say if there is some artificial staining on it.
Please give me your opinion!
Niccolò

[rpfstoneman]

Niccolò,

Interesting bottle from your initial description. This material type is likely outside my area of experience, but to judge more easily a bit more information would help. 

Can you provide the overall height without the stopper to judge size?  It looks relatively small from the photos.

You discuss how heavy it is given the possible material type, but knowing how well hollowed the bottle is would give that comment better perspective.

What was the scratch test done with?  I am presuming steel, and if so it is likely a stone of some type.

Better closeup photos of the bottle could help. 

All this being say, all can say for now that my initial impression from the photos alone was that it appeared to be lacquer on wood as based on the shine and color.  If it is hard to scratched with steel, then it could be 1) one of the varied forms of agate, 2) an obsidian as based on the color description, or 3) glass imitating a stone.

That's all the insight that I can provide for now.  Charll 

[George]

Hi Niccolo..

In addition to what Charll suggested, can you shine a light through the bottle at all ?

[guest526]

Hi Niccolo

It has some marks/writing on the right shoulder which can be seen in the first photo or is that just the design?.

Regards
Uma

[YT]

Dear Uma,

The words are 一帆风顺 which means Bon Voyage.


Dear Noccolò,

With your description and the good carving, I'm guessing it to be a black serpentine with minimal hollowing.

Cheers,
YT

[YT]

Here is a link
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/an-unusual-carved-serpentine-snuff-bottle-attributed-4881884-details.aspx?from=salesummary&intObjectID=4881884&sid=7670a99b-edb7-4380-978c-a95fb66f82b9

[George]

Here is a link
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/an-unusual-carved-serpentine-snuff-bottle-attributed-4881884-details.aspx?from=salesummary&intObjectID=4881884&sid=7670a99b-edb7-4380-978c-a95fb66f82b9

Good job YT...

Niccolò's bottle could very well be serpentine as you suggested earlier.

If so, a big congratulations to you Niccolò !

[YT]

Thank you George 
Still a wild guess.

[guest526]

Hi YT

Thanks for reading the mark, interesting bottle.

Cheers
Uma

[YT]

You are welcome Uma 

[Niccolò]

Dear friends,
thank you all for your precious help. The bottle is 7 cm tall and the material is undoubtely black serpentine. Is it quite rare, isn't it? A good surprise for me...
The bottle is not very well hollowed, as YT told. Could it be a sign of a late XIX century dating?
Thanks to YT reading now I can understand the meaning of the ship on one side: it was probably a wish for a good journey to the sea. Don't you agree?
Thanks again
Niccolò

[Wattana]

Hi Niccolo,

It does appear to be black serpentine, and if so, is not very common. Congratulations!

In my opinion the design does not appear to be aimed at Chinese tastes. Therefore I would assume it was probably made as a souvenir for the Western market, especially since it is not too well hollowed internally. However, an appropriate wish in Chinese characters to accompany the image of a boat!

Tom

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear all,
let me take the opportunity of this thread to make some general comments.
First at all: why you Niccolò said that the bottle is undoubtedly serpentine? Do you have some reason for that or are you just referring to the color of the bottle which seems similar to the one sold by Christies? If so, that is not enough, from your pictures and from your previous comments we are even not able to say if it is a stone, a type of resin or else. You didn’t say, before seeing Christie’s bottle, that it is undoubtedly stone. You said that it is possible to scratch it, but you didn’t say by means of what. By a steel tip? By glass? We don’t know that so we don’t have an idea about the hardness. We also don’t have an idea about the hollowing. What do you mean by not well hollowed, just a straight hole or a partial hollowing? Also, by the pictures we can’t appreciate the quality of the carving, which is very important in determining if a bottle is an old one or a recent tourist gadget. You should post more clear pictures, and also show the mouth and the base, which are very important, and the side.
Now, a general, personal opinion. The most expert of us should be more careful in commenting what is posted by novices. I want to make clear that I am not specifically referring to what has been said here, I am not saying that YT has not been careful and I don’t know how experienced is Niccolò, but I think that he is at the beginning of his adventures in this field. I am not saying that you YT did it wrong in referring to Christie’s bottle, you have been right because you was just referring to the type of mineral and not to the quality of the bottle. I am just taking the opportunity as said in the beginning. What I mean is that a novice don’t has the experience to correctly judging what is said to him. To be clear: if a beginner is showing a trash bottle it is better to tell him frankly that “your bottle is a recent fake or a tourist grade object and its value is almost nothing” than telling him that “your nice bottle don’t has the quality of the good ones” because the first thing that the beginner will think is “hey, it is not a top quality object but also not rubbish, because the expert said that it is nice”. In this case it is possible that Niccolò thinks that the bottle sold by Christie’s reached that considerable value because of the type of stone. If so dear Niccolò be aware that, besides the superior quality of the carving, that bottle has been sold at that price because of the provenance, J&J collection. Most probably, really MOST PROBABLY, if you had found the same bottle at a flea market or at a local Antique shop and you propose it to Christie’s they could tell you that “sorry, your bottle don’t has the quality level requested by our sales”.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Niccolò]

Dear Giovanni,
thank you for your admonitions. Even though I would like to clarify some points. I am at the beginnin of my adventure in snuff bottles world, but not at the very beginning. I am also an archeologist and I have some experience in old manufacts and stones (even though I am an expert in other fields of antiquity). When I say that it is undoubtely black serpentine, it means that I have no scientific proof, but I followed YT suggestion and verified the characteristics of that stone in comparison with those of my stone, and the resulting evidence seems to me unequivocal (not just the colour, but the glossy surface or the softness of the stone, for instance).
Another thing, I am not so naive and I perfectly understand the quality differences between mine and Sotherby's bottle (as regards the carving, for example). I also noticed the uncommon iconography on my bottle and know that it could be a touristic souvenir, but an old souvenir. I am pretty sure of it (from the patina, i.e.)
As concerns your request of further information: the material is definetely not resin, but stone, a quite heavy stone. It scratches only with an iron pin. The hollowing is poor but not just a vertical hole in the bottle.
In conclusion, it was a good surprise for me to discover (THANKS TO some kind members of this forum) the POSSIBLE material of my bottle and its rarity. Just this, nothing more.
Niccolò

[YT]

Dear Giovanni,

I am actually quite happy with what you have pointed out. A true teacher and I have much to learn from.


Dear Niccolò,

Giovanni always mean well and has always taught me a trick or two every time.
To know whether this is Serpentine is very easy. I have sent mine to GIA for testing and only cost a couple of hundred dollars. Verified and guaranteed.

When shining a torchlight into the opening, the black bottle, if it is serpentine should have a certain degree of translucency.

Cheers,
YT

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear YT,
thank you very much.
Dear Niccolò, I didn't mean that you are naive, if you understood so, sorry for that. What are those rounded pits shown by the red arrows?
Giovanni

[Niccolò]

Dear Giovanni,
no problem. your intent was clear. Thank you again.
This signs are chips in the stone which, as I told you, is quite soft. Do you have any suggestions about the age of the bottle?
Niccolò

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Niccolò,
I can't say how many years it has, but to me it is not an old bottle, for sure not 19th century. It could be matter of the pictures, but it is hard to believe that those are chips, due to the shape. How can we have a rounded chip on the flat surface of a stone? If I have to judge by the pictures alone, to me your bottle is made of resin. At the beginning I thought resin or black glass, but you said that you can scratch it so glass must be excluded. To me the shaping of the carving is typical of resin and not stone, but you have the bottle in hands so you are a better judge.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[Steven]

Hi Niccolò,

I have to agree with Giovanni on everything, I have no much knowledge on material, but the overall design is not 19th. there is some characters"一帆风顺" 'smooth sailing 'on the bottle which you will not be able to see it in old bottle. And the carving is not right too. Plus the dots on the bottle are really a sign of the resin.

I know its kinda discourage for a new collector, but we all have went through it, and we don't want to mislead you.

Steven

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Hi Niccolò,
it would be nice to know if both me and Steven has been wrong. Can you confirm that the bottle is undoubtedly stone?
Thank you
Giovanni