Porcelain lotus leaf

[Niccolò]

Dear all,
I would like to show you a porcelain bottle representing a lotus leaf (lenght is 7,2 cm). Could you give me your opinion about dating and quality? Sorry for the poor quality of the pictures...
Thank you,
Niccolò

[George]

Hi Niccolo..

I am not so good at dating these, but it does look old.. Lets see what the porcelain guys and gals say

Nice bottle though !

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Niccolò,
the quality of the moulding is good, it looks that of the old bottles. The new ones are not so good according to the few ones that I have seen. Nevertheless by the pictures it seems that bottle is like new, I can't appreciate any sign of wear. Does it have some wear on the surface? I am meaning convincing wear of course.
Giovanni

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Niccolo

I believe this is likely a recent (post 1970s) bottle.  In my years in China I have seen many of these.  I am also interested what others will say.  This is one is of very good quality as Giovanni indicated!   

[Wattana]

Dear Niccolo,

Thanks for posting this bottle. Like Pat, I have seen a number of these before. Size and shape look right, but most of the early ones have a less glossy glaze. In my opinion your bottle may be a good modern copy of an older design.

Tom

[Niccolò]

Thank you for your precious remarks. It is always very useful to discuss on this forum.
Actually the bottle has a strong glossy glaze and presents only some colour losses on the most potruding parts, as you can see from the pictures. I cannot see any real patina, but I am not expert in the field of porcelain...

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Niccolo

Now with the close-ups, I am more convinced this is a modern reproduction but it is very well done. 

[Niccolò]

Thank you Pat.
Just a further question to improve my knoledge of this type of bottle: do you see any sign of age or patina on this similar bottle dated to the 19 century?

http://www.espace4.com/collections/tabatiere-en-porcelaine-moulee-et-emaillee/

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Nicollo

It is extremely rare to find antique items without any wear especially snuff bottles who were made for daily and very frequent use. In my personal view I would take the 19th century dating for the example shown with a serious grain of salt. But as in any case I can be wrong. Giovanni and Charll here as well as Joey are way more expert in the porcelain field. I can only say that I have literally seen dozens of these bottles in Chinese markets.

[YT]

Thank you Pat.
Just a further question to improve my knoledge of this type of bottle: do you see any sign of age or patina on this similar bottle dated to the 19 century?

http://www.espace4.com/collections/tabatiere-en-porcelaine-moulee-et-emaillee/

Dear Niccolò,

Just saw this thread. I do not think the linked porcelain bottle is 19th.

Attached is a bottle that belongs to The Paul Braga Collection of Snuff Bottles. For you to do the comparisons.

Cheers,
YT

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Niccolo,

     I used to have 2 of these mid-19th C. ones in naturalistic colours, and one of the rarer soft paste ones in an all-over cream glaze, which was late 18th/early 19th  C.  And then a friend in the USA found me a late 18th/early 19th C. version in ivory which  was identical to my soft paste example - which was copied from which, I don't know. I bought it from him in late Aug.1987, just a few months before my first Museum show, at the Israel Museum, Jerusalem (Dec.1987 - July 1988), and displayed it.

     Both yours and the one marketed as 19th C. are very good late 20th/early 21st C. copies.
Paul Braga's is genuine.

    Best Wishes,
Joey

[Niccolò]

Dear all,
thank you for your comments. It is always very instructive to share bottles with you.
The moral of the story for me is: always doubt, even with international dealers...
N

[YT]

Dear Joey,

Yes the Braga bottle is nice and light. I remember Richard telling me about its big opening being early porcelain.


Dear Niccolò,

Compare always with the best. It is business for dealers to be able to convince even if they know.
With time, you will be able to tell. 

Cheers,
YT

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Niccolo,

     If you can find bottles which have provenance (ie., have been documented in the same collection or series of owners going back at least before the current surge in interest from before 1980, or if pre-1960, even better), you  have a much better chance.
Best,
Joey

Dear all,
thank you for your comments. It is always very instructive to share bottles with you.
The moral of the story for me is: always doubt, even with international dealers...
N