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I think Suo Zhenhai. Right or not?

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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« on: November 20, 2015, 02:27:50 pm »

I think Suo Zhenhai. Right or wrong?
Dear all, this is the type of bottle that must be seen in real to be fully appreciated, because it is so slim, having an height of 68 mm, maximum width of 21 mm and a width of only 14 mm in the flat side. So the landscape is particularly narrow and high, as it happens in scrolls. You all know that I am not so knowledgeable on IP Artists but by the painting style I think that it has been painted by Suo Zhenhai. Am I right?
Kind regards
Giovanni


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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2015, 04:42:18 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

     It sure looks like Suo Zhenhai's style to me. I've modified this from my previous message, because both Steven and Rick are better observers than I.

Best,
Joey
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2015, 04:58:59 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

It sure appear to be Suo zhenhai style bottle, but its hard to see its painted by Suo zhenhai, as I know Suo Zhenhai has a group of students who paint Suo zhenhai style very well, almost close to real and they are still painting, since  Suo's style is not difficult to be copied, his painting strokes don't need to be very accurate, and its kinda of loose. And this bottle is not signed and dated. Normally Suo's bottle will be signed, some good one's signed with his full name or sometimes with his pen name" Yi Ding" or "Yi shi", or sometime with both full name and pen name.
Even signed bottles sometime is hard to identify. I remember Peter has a bottle signed but with the date in which Suo already passed away..

Back to the bottle itself, the strokes is fluent, but there is something not exciting I can tell, the mist is not perfectly done as Suo always does, and the water wave is not perfectly done either.
If I have to vote, I will vote it as a student bottle.

Best!

Steven

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2622.0.html

Take a look at Tom's Zuo zhenhai bottle, you might be able to tell better.
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2015, 06:01:07 pm »

Dear Steven-

I believe you are correct in thinking this bottle was done by one of Mr. Suo's students.  I agree that the water does not look correct, also the misty clouds look too sloppy.  Suo was a master of painting very quickly but his strokes were nonetheless fluid and natural looking.  Mr. Suo had several students who learned his techniques very well and David Osborne sold some of their works BUT they were labeled as "in Mr. Suo's style".  After he died I was told his wife continued selling bottles in Beijing that he had done and she probably also sold some of his students bottles.

While I dearly love Mr. Suo's bottles, I was never a fan of his calligraphy which I found to be sloppy.  This could be attributed to his degree of education or to the fact that he worked so quickly that he didn't take great care with calligraphy.  His style of painting was his own and reflected his love of the natural world.  Unfortunately, he was not greatly appreciated until his later years.  He is greatly missed and one wonders what his work would have looked like has he lived longer.

Best wishes, Rick
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2015, 09:07:14 pm »

Hi All

I think  this  is  almost certainly a Suo Zhenhai   student's  work for  several reasons

1.  I  don't recall  SZH himself  ever  painting  in such  narrow  bottles  (or  at least  not  landscapes)

2. This  very  narrow  kind of  bottle   seemed  to  come  in and  out of  fashion  in a  short period   around  2007 - 2009

   I have  several  examples  of these bottles  painted  by  Zhang Limin ( and you  can  also   find several  "fake/false-
    signed" bottles in this  shape  in Liu Jianghua's  book (2008) -  which  were  actually  also  painted  by  Zhang  Limin)
 
    SZH himself  died  in  2004 (2005? )

3.  It's  technically  very  difficult to  paint  inside  such a   thin bottle  because the neck is  so   small.

     If I  understand  correctly,  SZH was  more  interested  in  painting  freely (and very  fast !)
     rather than going  to the  limits of  what is  possible  technically

4. I have  some   examples  of   SZH  student's  works  that  were  painted  in  very  small  bottles  :  not  tall and  thin
   like this  bottle,  but   certainly much  smaller than usual

When and  how  did  you buy this bottle Giovanni ?

Can  anyone   see a  signature   or  date   on it ? If  so  that  would  help.

BTW :  Just  as points  of info

1.  Yes  SZH's  wife  continued to sell  after  the death  of  SZH himself. I think  she even had a  website  at one  time
     But  I  think that   she  never sold  bottles  signed ' SZH' that  were  not genuinely   by  SZH

     I  think  SZH  painted a  lot of bottles  in late life  (probably because  he  knew  he was dying  of  cancer) which
     were  only sold  after  his  death .

     I once  saw  about  20 x  SZH  bottles  in the  home  of  Li Shouxun   who  was a  good  friend  of  SZH and  his  wife
     I  suspect  LSX  bought  them  to help  SZH  financially  in his last  years,  meaning  later to  sell them  later.

2.  I  am almost  certain that  all David  Osborne's   SZH bottles  are  genuine. I don't  know of  any  DO  bottles that
     are  signed "SZH"  but  apparently painted  after SZH  died.  Remember  that  DO was   good friend  of  SZH and   he
     often  went to  SZH's   home  to watch  him paint

Cheers

Peter
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2015, 09:13:42 pm »

Peter and all

Agree that this is highly likely to be SZH student work.  One correction though , he died end 2006.
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Best Regards

Pat
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2015, 12:32:29 am »

I have a number of extremely fine Suo Zhenhai landscapes in similar tall thin bottles, acquired via David Osborne by Rick on the Forum and sold to me, and Mike Ma has a number as well.
I accept that the bottle that Giovanni posted is by a student, but the master did paint in such tall thin bottles.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2015, 02:01:37 am »

Dear all,
thank you very much. I must say that I too, when I decided to buy it, thought of the possibility of being a bottle painted by one of his student. I didn’t know if he had, though. I really appreciate your posts from where I did learn something more. I think that you were correct about the strokes, they looks quite “blotched”, especially on the mountains and the waterfall. I am adding to bigger enlargement which I think are confirming your idea about this bottle. Anyway, I like it for the shape of the landscapes, so tall.
Dear Peter, I bought it on ebay from an English seller.
Kind regards
Giovanni


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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2015, 01:43:02 am »

Hi  Joey,

When you  say "similar tall thin bottles"  do  you  really  mean  the  ultra-slender type   which  Giovanni   showed?

Could  you  please  post  a   few  pics  of the  bottles  you bought  via Rick  from   David  Osborne ?

Many thanks

Cheers

Peter

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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2015, 03:10:13 am »

Dear Peter,

    I am presently in Los Angeles, and the bottles are in Jerusalem, but I return home by 27.Nov., and can then measure and photograph them. I think mine are taller by 10 or 12 mm, but look to have similar dimensions. Rick commissioned them via David Osborne from Master Suo Zhenhai.

Best,
Joey
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2015, 04:43:40 am »

Hi  Joey

OK,  understood  and  will  wait  for  your  photos  in  due  course

I  would  be  very  interested  to  see  first-hand  bottles  painted  by  SZH  in those  elegant   super-slender  bottles (which  these  days  seem to have  gone  out  of  fashion)

Cheers

Peter

PS:  How  was the   2015  Chicago  Convention? Maybe  you  could  open a  new  thread   with  all the  news   Wink
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2015, 05:15:48 am »

Hi Peter

I have posted a Suo Zhenhai's slender bottle about 2 years ago. It is dated and signed, 78 mm tall.

Here is the thread:

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1750.msg21934.html#msg21934

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2015, 05:25:24 am »

Hi  Richard

Noted  and  thanks

But  that  is  NOT  the  same  super-slim  type  of   "pencil -thin"   bottle  that Giovanni  showed

Cheers

Peter
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2015, 10:26:49 am »

Dear all,
thank you Rick for addressing to your bottle. Here is a direct comparison of the two bottles. The sizes too are roughly correct, because Rick's bottle is 78 mm tall and my one is 68 mm, so this is a direct comparison in any sense. What do you think about the painting styles? I thing that the fact that Rick's bottle has much many colors while my one is black and white except for the figures, play an important role in seeing them different. So I am also adding a picture with both bottles in black and white to concentrate the attention to the painting style alone. What do you think?
Giovanni


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* Confr Rickbn.jpg (85.04 KB, 419x600 - viewed 23 times.)
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2015, 02:21:12 pm »

I thing that the fact that Rick's bottle has much many colors while my one is black and white except for the figures, play an important role in seeing them different.


That was what stood out for me first time I looked at your bottle Giovanni..  But following along and listening to what others say who are more familiar with Suo Zhenhai than I am..
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2015, 02:28:06 pm »

Dear Richard,
sorry I realize that I did call you Rick, please apologize.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2015, 05:12:31 pm »

Hi  Giovanni,  Richard

Richard's  bottle  is  very  much a  typical   SZH  bottle   shape.

But  Giovanni's bottle  is  fundamentally  different :  not  only  is  it  much  slimmer relative to the  height,  but the  shoulder  is   sloping  (Richard's  bottle  has a  traditional  square-shaped  shoulder)

Cheers
Peter
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2015, 06:11:17 pm »

Peter,

       Actually, after you described the bottle, I looked at it again.
My bottles are much more very elongated rectangular flattened flasks.
When I return home, I will get my bottles photographed.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2015, 07:21:20 am »

No problem Giovanni.

But it turns out that mine is higher than yours by 1 cm. I thought yours is taller at first.

Regards.


Richard


Dear Richard,
sorry I realize that I did call you Rick, please apologize.
Kind regards
Giovanni

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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2015, 07:44:19 am »

Dear Richard,
it is very good that you have shown your bottle, because the comparison of the two bottles is very interesting in my opinion, since it better shows how thin is my bottle. I am wondering if this could have an influence on the execution of the painting. I see some difference between the two bottles, mainly in the rendering of the shades, but is that due to a different hand or to the fact of using only the black, plus the limited space?
Giovanni
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