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Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so)

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Author Topic: Da Yong Scam ? (I hope not but I fear so)  (Read 432 times)
Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« on: September 19, 2015, 01:43:37 am »

Hello   All

I  dreaded  to  post this   but  I feel  I must do  so  in the  interest  of  Honesty

Pin recently  published  an  amazing    bottle  by  Da  Yong.   I  must  admit  I was  captivated  by  it    and  offered  my  top price  (based  on my retirement earnings)  of  RMB20K 

I  eventually   got  back an  email  from  Da  Yong  himself   saying  that  bottom  price is  RMB 50K

OK  -  all  fair  and  well. 

But  then  I  was  prompted  to  dig  out  my  recent   work  on  cataloging   all my  bottles   and  out  popped  this  .....  (see  3  x    attachments )

Da  Yong   -  as   far  as  I can  ascertain  -   was  part  of  THE  biggest  scam  of  all  :  the  Liu Jianghua   scam  whereby  - as  verified  by  some  very  reliable   sources  in Singapore  -    about 2,500    (YES  ... OVER 2,500  !)  bottles  "attributed"  to "Master"   Liu  Jianghua   were  sold  to   some    very  gullible  Singapore   collectors 

There's  even a    whole  book  of  Liu  Jianghua's   "bottles"  which  I dutifully  bought  and  scanned  and  included  in  my  Data  Base

I  bought the  book  from   a    senior  Forum  member  in  Singapore  who I am sure   (CERTAIN )  sold  it  to  me  in  all  honesty   and   good  faith    at the   time 

Take  a  look  at the  attached    pics  and  tell  me  if  I am   wrong

I  truly  hate to   write  this  because  all my  dealings   with  Da  Yong  have been  super-friendly  and  his  home,  which I visited  several  times,  was  always    stacked  floor-to-ceiling  with   art  books

But  Zhang Limin (late  of the   Qin  School  -  now  back  in  Hengshui  so  I  heard  on the  grapevine)   told  me  that  he  often  painted   student -  quality   bottles   and  passed  them  to  Da  Yong   who then   signed  off  on them

I have  several  such Zhang Limin "actual"   unsigned  / fake-signed   bottles    in my  collection  and  they  are  the   works  of a   true   genius  before  he  grew  older  and more   stale.

 (May he  soon  resurrect  himself !  And I   do pray so  !) 

Oh  so  sad.....

One of  my  last - ever    bottle  purchases was  from Da  Yong   in person   who  literally  "challenged"    me  to   see    that he  could   really  paint  Chinese  landscapes .  I  went to his  home  and  he  showed  me a  bewildering  number  of   different  bottles    - all  sorts  of  styles  and  media  .  I    should  have been  suspicious  there  and  then  but  I  wasn't  and  fell  for a  truly  beautiful   Chinese  landscape  in  abstract  colors  which  I  will  post   separately  on the  Forum

So  you  can imagine  my  shock  -   nay  horror  -   when I  stumbled  by  pure chance   in an art book  on  what  I am  certain   was  the   original  painting  from  which  it  was  obviously   copied    - see    the  pic   which  I  will  post  later .   And   therefore most  probably not even  painted  by  Da  Yong  himself..... !

Aaaaaaaaaagh  !!!!

Cheers

Peter

PS  :  And to make  it  even   worse  I  now  realize  that  I  endorsed  DY  in the   final  sentences  of  my  Part 2  ICSBS   article 










* Liu Jianghua Book Page (39).jpg (45.22 KB, 814x768 - viewed 27 times.)

* P031(A).jpg (25.33 KB, 336x448 - viewed 27 times.)

* P031(B).jpg (25.14 KB, 336x448 - viewed 18 times.)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 01:58:22 am by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2015, 01:51:54 am »

Hi again  All

Tell me  if  this  bottle  is  not a  direct   copy  of the  original  painting  above  (  by  Zhang  Daqian)

Cheers

Peter


* Autumn Morning + Zhang Yong (A) (1).jpg (352.54 KB, 1005x768 - viewed 25 times.)
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2015, 02:04:40 am »

Hi  again

Here's  my  official    catalog   of the   DY   bottle

My  collection   tops   out  at    330    bottles,  the  last of  which   "P330"   was  painted  by  Song Yiming    who  -  if  ever  there  was  true  modern  genius  and   who has  never  scammed  (and  whose  bottles  have  always  been  fairly and    very   reasonably  priced  ) -  He  is   indeed  that  person.

SYM    - it  so seems  -  went  though a  stale  patch   while  he   was   living  in  Xian as   part of  the  budding  new  Qin  School.   

Far  be  it   from me  to offer  any  reliable   opinion  on the  ins  and  outs  of  VMIPB  artists  and their  careers  (but  I  did  hear  that the  tipping  point   for  Yi Ming was   too much  painting  and  too  little  beer, but  having   drunk  and peed together  with  Zhang Tieshan  I   don't  think that  can be  the   whole   story) 

If  it   did  not  affect    the   whole  lifetime   careers   (and    therefore   lifetime family  income)  of   such  great  artists  I  would  not  make   such  light  of  such  matters 

But  I am  deadly  serious  :    Song Yiming  was  the   first  and  last  artist   whose  works  I  have  diligently  collected.  He  is a   true  genius

Cheers

Peter


* P325(A).jpg (311.88 KB, 768x1024 - viewed 22 times.)

* P325(B).jpg (312.9 KB, 768x1024 - viewed 18 times.)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 02:23:33 am by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2015, 05:55:03 am »

Hi Peter :

I love that DaYong copied Zhang DaQian bottle a lot........ if you in any way would like to let go the bottle at RMB20,000.... Please let me know....

Thanks a lot

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2015, 07:25:33 am »

Hi  Joey  and  Pin,

I  don't  have a  problem   with the  fact  that  DY  (or  one  his   students)    apparently copied   that bottle   from  the  Zhang Daqian  original. 

It  was  pure   one  in  a  zillion   chance  that I  stumbled  on  the  original  painting

Indeed, as  Joey   correctly    wrote :    from  time  immemorial   Chinese  (IPB)  artists  have  paid  homage   to   great  artists'   works   by copying them.

I was  just so  pissed  off  that DY never   told  me  that  it  was a   copy  of a  great  work   by another   artist  (and  most  probably  DY  did  not  even  paint   /  copy-paint   it  himself  !)    -   having   boasted that  he   also    could  paint  Chinese  landscapes 

Sort  of  leaves a  bad  taste  in my  mouth because  I really  got  on so well   with  DY  personally  and drank so many  happy  beers  with  him. 

Anyway,  what's   done is  done   

There   are  some  much  more  famous  artists  who have been  caught red-handed signing  off  on their   students'  bottles, as  many  collectors  in  S'Pore    know  for a  fact

Cheers

Peter



« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 07:28:15 am by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2015, 11:07:00 am »

Hi Joey

We   have  clashed    swords   on  more  than one  occasion,  but  on this I feel   we  are  united

I    truly   love    that bottle    which I  bought   from  DY   that  last  day  I ever  was  in Hengshui  in   May  2014.  I  looked   at  it  in  every  possible  lighting   condition   for  over  one hour    thinking  it  was   a genuine   DY   work of real   true  Chinese  Landscape   art  .

But  now  I  find  out  that  the   A-side   was a   copy  (and  probably  not  even  copied  by  DY   himself)

The  B-side  is  definitely  not  in the   same  league  as  the  A-side.  Anyone  with  any  taste   can see  that .

So it  leaves  a  nasty  taste  in my  mouth ....   so  sorry  to  say

But  when  I  contrast   that   bottle   with  the best  of the  best   Song  Yiming   bottles    which  I collected   over  the years     -  you  saw  the  goldfish  !  -     then  I  do  know  that  I  did   actually   buy  some   real  gems   along the   way ,  including  one  his   recent  masterpieces    c/o    the   Qin  School

I have  some  reason to believe  that  another   "Grand  Master"  has  been  signng  off  on his  wife's  bottles

I cannot   prove it  -  but I   suspect  it

All   so  very  sad

We  need  to  keep  this thread  in the  private   section    of the  Forum   for obvious   reasons

My   allegations  may  be  totally  unfounded    - and  indeed  I  wish  that   they may be  so

Cheers

Peter

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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2015, 09:21:04 pm »

Dear Peter,

I believe you have made your point. Please spare some thoughts for people who were cheated and feels more than you will imagine.

The world is round, what goes around comes around!

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2015, 06:09:36 am »

Hi  YT, Pin,   Joey ,  All

Yes  the   world  is  indeed  round   and  I  went   round the    world   (and even  posted  a   RMB 1 K   prize  in  Hengshui )  to     finally   find  out  was  / is "Spiderman "  (It   was   actually   Zhang  Limin  and   who    in  turn     accidentally who   spilled  the  beans  to me on  DY ,  although I never  suspected  the  true   depth  of  the  scam(s)   until    just  recently )  

And   what  happens  in  Los  Vegas    stays   in  Los  Vegas     - well    sort   of because signing  off  on    students'  works  goes far  back  into the    very   roots  of the  Jing  School

I   paid  US$475      for   what     David  Osborne     sold  me    in total   good  faith  as a  genuine   DY   classic    western  Landscape.  When  I   showed  the   actual  bottle  to  Da  Yong   he  was   totally  mystified   and  denied  he   ever  painted  it

But  yet  it was   signed   off  by  WXS   to  David  Osborne  and  then   to  me   -  all  in good  faith ! !  

There   are   some   huge  scams   out  there 

The   most serious   was  the   LSB    scam  -  just  ask  any    Nanyang   Group    collector    to  verify
Most   of  them   were  totally fooled.   LSB     signed   off  on  countless   student   bottles     starting  in  about 2000   . Since  when  LSB  has  -  apparently  lost   all     "face"  in  S'Pore 

The    single biggest   scam    was / is  the  Liu  Jianghua     aka  Da   Yong scam  for   which  I personally   hold several  smoking   guns    (2,500   bottles    fraudulently   sold   to   some very  gullible  S'pore    collectors   .....   I  could  not believe  that   totally   crazy   number  until   I  treble   checked     it ) 

Pin     -  so  sorry  to   say  :  the  bottles  are  beautiful  but they  are  (almost   certainly)  not  painted  by  DY   himself    and  they  are  CERTAINLY  not   worth   RMB 50 K !

Cheers

Peter


* P269(A).jpg (306.5 KB, 768x1024 - viewed 24 times.)

* P269(B).jpg (348.29 KB, 768x1024 - viewed 20 times.)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 09:52:28 am by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2015, 08:28:24 pm »

Hi Peter :

Thanks for your advise.....

But maybe what I can only say is......... Keep Calm and Welcome to the Chinese Culture  Grin

Cheers and have a beer.

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2015, 03:08:57 am »

Hi  Pin

Yes  indeed  I must  keep   calm..... 

I have  news  of  even  bigger  scams   that I  dare  not  even  mention  (because  I  cannot  prove them,  but  the  Nanyang  Collectors   Group  and  Yeo  know  of  them)

So  very, VERY   sad  that  the   word "China"  is  now  so  often  associated   with the    words "fake"  and "scam"

But    when  I   finally  developed a   passion  for   Chinese   art  I    eventually   found  out  I  was  in  many  cases  being  scammed  !

I  am  so   ashamed 

What  more  can  I  say  ?

I   advise  that  you    openly  challenge   DY  on  whether  he  really  painted   those   bottles

I    wish to  move  this  entire  thread     to the  public  section  -  if  George   can   so  can  arrange

If  George  can   not  so  arrange   I  will   re-post    everything     in  the  public  section

I  am  so  ashamed   -  particularly  as  I   signed   off   on  DY  as   a  bona  fide    modern  genius  in the  very   last  pages    of  my  ICSBS   article   Part 2

Mea  Culpa

And  so     stupid  and     so  gullible 

Cheers

Peter



« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 06:57:26 am by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2015, 08:13:45 am »

Hi Peter :

I must first say that I do not write long email or reply...(and maybe most of us Chinese don't).... and you will most likely had realized that Chinese don't express ourselves like most of the Caucasian do......... So before I start to attempt to write a longer than normal reply to you.... please pardon me on any mistake that I will make........

1) First of all, I would say that you are a lucky person to come into snuff bottle collection... lucky bec that, In am opinion, the "scams" and fake in VMIP snuff bottle area is comparatively much less to many other area of Chinese art or even other media in snuff bottle....... imaging if you had decided on collection Chinese painting or tea pot or even porcelain..... most likely you will say that all Chinese are crooks after half a year or murdered some artist along the way..... I brought my first porcelain tea pot when I was 16 years old, that's when I started and at a certain point in time, decided that collecting Chinese art is too much BS for me, so I stopped for a good 10 years before starting again on something Chinese, snuff bottle...... Do I lose my interest in Chinese art when I was not collecting, No I didnt.... I just go to the museum and admire them... art without BS... even if there is, its not my problem.....So when I decide to start again, I am fully aware of what I am getting into.

2) Secondly, try to understand Chinese and our art in a different way...... we appreciate/collect something "sometime" in "the sprit of" someone great.... let me give you an example... Wang XiZhi... what you see in museum are most likely not his work, (most of the real work was burned by that last emperor of Tang dynasty when the Song army won over the country) but a replicate from Tang Dynasty, but we still acknowledge it in "his sprit" and that the work is the best "representation" of one of the most accomplished calligraphy artist in Chinese history.... do all Chinese go to the museum and shout at the top of the voice that all this is a scam or bullshit....... We don't....

lets see Mao ZiTong calligraphy..... they are respected by most Chinese.... but in the pure artistic value... is it really that fantastic ?..... Don't know, at least I don't think so... but we respect his calligraphy as the work from a man that had achieved what he set forth for and achieved it and more also a man that liberated our race from the Japanese occupation.... (no discussion about political system please).

3) Closer to heart... IP bottles.... are you not familiar with Ye family copying ZLY work...(and I can bet you that you can name many people that do that, Chen Zhong San, Yan Yu Tian... the list goes on)....... do we still collect them......YES we do.... Do you want to dig up their grave and tell them that they are part of a big "scam" ?? Even the bottles of MXS.... who really painted the bottle? Ma Kuang Jia or his brother or his father or his nephew ? That goes with the Ye family too....which generation of Ye is the real artist of that bottle !!!!

Of course we are more critical about modern artist...all of us want to get the real thing....... but remember, modern or in their grave... they are just human being.... Does the finishing touch = paint by them ? How much or how less the finishing touch should there be Huh Artists are in constant dilemma, paint everything themselves from scratch and every bottle need to be innovative and creative... then they will only have a few bottles to put on the market, will that small amt of bottles be noticed and the make them famous... chances are very little, almost zero !! bec even art gallery wont sign them on.... too troublesome and expensive to market someone will that little amt of work........ Just do the finishing touch ? then they risk being the center point of a scam..... What do they do.......I don't know, I am just lucky that its not my problem and I only need to choose if I want admire their work OR NOT......


4) Lets tune back the clock a few years and see where is an artist like Zhang Yong etc...... who are they? Apprentice.... how much do they earn ? next to nothing compared to people that has a good education in the first world..... DO they need food, home and had hopes for their children like all of us in the first world.... YES they do....... Do they have fear that they themselves, no matter how hard they work, cant provide for their family..... YES they do..... Even I do!!! although if you do the math, I should be able at least to make sure that my daughter will have chicken rice for the rest of her life if I die tomorrow..... Some STUPID and UNFOUNDED worries that I have.... SURE and Yes I agree......... but I am a father and I still hope that she will never lose her smile bec of money and materialistic matters......STUPID, SURE !!!

Take a look at this :



The original picture is here :



How much is this bottle Huh which takes probably 2-3 weeks of an apprentice not so skillful paint brush to complete compared to the master .......ZY give it to me free as my girls baby gift, but also said that its between RMB1000-RMB2000 if I want to paint more bottles ....Do you think, if you are a apprentice (and most likely, he or she is going to spend a good 3-5 years to be able to paint like this) you will have fear in your eyes and in your soul if you only get RMB1000-2000 for a 2 weeks job, IF, at all, lucky you, someone ever call you to paint something ?........ DO you think that if his or her baby is crying for MILK and I offer him another RMB100, he will write "painted by Zhou Le Yuan" at the back of the bottle ?.......... or, I just call him to leave the back of the bottle empty and I myself will try to put some ugly calligraphy by myself and say its painted by me and resell the bottle under my name to an innocent person on the street.......

4) "Scam" or not scam..... the Nanyang group  knows it more than all of us....... Do you think they need any one of us to help them on discovering scams in VMIP ?.... gullible??.... hard to believe....... collectively (even individually).. their experiences, expertise,  knowledge on the subject, time spend  and ability to communicate with any IP artist in China must be way above any individual can do ....... why are they keeping quiet ? IMHO, its bec they are willing to give everyone a 2nd chance and let bygone be bygone....... My father has been telling me since I was a kid that "IF you have the luxury of forgiving someone, then just forgive him" when I was young... my answer was... Damm it, why should I?........ when I am almost 50, I realized his wisdom...

5) I use to buy ZY bottle at RMB 20,000.... then the last one, maybe few a mths ago, he increase to RMB 28,000..... then suddenly, and again he increase his price to RMB 50,000....... I was too shocked and tot that, how can he do such things to me !!! So I did write to him and this is what he said.... "I am already close to 40 years old.... if I am going to paint like what I paint, its going to be another 5 years or so before my eye sight and my hand starts to fail me increasingly....... Its my only chance to make more money before age catches up and I will be struggling to make ends need later in life. My only skill is in painting snuff bottles, I do not have any other skill that I can rely on once my prime is over."........ I wished him good luck and said that I will still buy bottles from him if I can afford..... He ask me if I can help him to see if theres a market in Singapore and beyond...... I agree to help him in my spare time as my father do have friend that opens an art gallery...... therefore the 3 bottles that he send me.......

6) Peter... Last but not least, I need to tell you that you have ZERO chance of getting the bottle at your asking price....... bec if ZY had said that that particular bottle is RMB 20,000 or even 25,000...... I would have brought it myself immediately and post the bottle as MY LASTES PURCHASE from Zhang Yong......

 
My point of view and my longest reply ......... Cheers and remember the beer

Pin




« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 09:07:38 am by AntPeople » Report Spam   Logged

五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2015, 09:25:09 am »

Hi  Pin

Thank you  so much  for  your  reply   and  I  am  glad  that  this  is  now  out  in the  public  area  , where it  needs  to  be   discussed  and  debated

Yes  I  know  all about the  Ye  family  and my  first  ever  antique bottle turned  out  to be  painted  by  a   ZLY   student    so it  was    "fake   ZLY"  work,  (I  sold  it  back the  dealer  after   WXS   in person declared  it  not a  genuine  ZLY)

I was   actually  at the  opening  of the  Jing School    exhibition  last weekend   - see   separate   thread  -   and  of  course  half the bottles  there   were  by the  Ye  family  (but  as  to  which Ye   -  who    really  knows ? )   

I  love  and  admire  Chinese   art  and the  art  of  copying .   My  single    biggest  collection  of  bottles  are  all by  Li Shouxun  which  are  commissioned  copies  of  a  water  color  abstract   Chinese  landscape   artist : Zhang Yumao  - see  my   ICSBS article  part 2   in the  sidebar ! 

I commissioned  12    bottles  at  US$ 2,000  each  =  US$24,000    spread over  6  years  because  every  bottle   took  LSX    a  couple of  months  to  paint   both sides . I  do  actually  own  two  of  Zhang Yumao's   original   paintings   which  cost  me   about  US$5,000     each   twenty  years  ago

When I first    started   seriously   collecting    VMIPBs     I was   shocked   ( in fact  -  disgusted)     at the  ridiculously  low  prices  that top  artists  were  being paid  at that time.

I have  worked  in  China   for    30  years   so  RMB4,000 for a  masterpiece  ?  That's  less than a  receptionist  earned   in my   previous company's  China  offices  per  month

Joey saw  that   totally  mind  blasting  Song  Yiming  goldfish  bottle    which I  hesitated     about   for  almost  two  years    two  years   from a  shop  in  BJ  near my  office  until  I  knocked  it   down    from   RMB15,600   to  a  paltry  RMB6,500 .  The  natural  crystal  bottle   alone  must  have  cost  SYM  most of that .

 I am  still  ashamed   at that  purchase,  which is  one  reason  why  I    try   promote   SYM's   works.

He  is  one   artist  whom I  know  does  not  scam  and   his   fame   will  live  forever  (His  pen  name  is  Da  Cheng)   

So   -  for  right  or  for  wrong  -  I  personally   campaigned   for  prices  to be   raised  (RMB4,000  10 years  ago   was   US$500    which  was  my  top    budget  price   at that  time  in the  mid 1990s ) 

 I  advocated  US$2,000   =  RMB  16,000    and  was  prepared  to  pay that  much  - and   very  often  did     pay that  much  except  for the  rare  bargains  I     bought  in  various    shops   which did  not  realize    the  true  value  of the   bottles  they  had   (hence  my  two micro  calligraphy   bottles  by  Yi  Ding/  Nie Lei   which  I  picked    for a  song and a  dance  - and  much admired  by Joey  -    but  I  had  to  buy a  fake-signed  "Wang  Baichuan"   bottle as  part of the  deal )

I also    accidentally  bought     quite a  lot  of definite  fakes   (I mean  fake  signing  off )  which  nonetheless  are  actually  quite  beautiful . So sad  that  I will  never   actually   find  out  who  the real  artists   were.

But  in  so  doing  I  actually  have  also  put  our  dearest   friends   Jill  Guo Jie  and  Li  Hui  out  of   their  VMIPB   business  because  US$2,000    will   now   buy a  fully   provenanced   Middle  Period  bottle  (my  single  only Middle  Period  bottle  by  Yan  Yutian  I bought  for   less  than  US$2K    from a   top  HK  dealer  -  who  coincidentally  was  at  BJ  last week )   

I   now  understand  that  Jill and  Li  Hui mainly  deal  in  antique  bottles   which  they   know    well  enough  about to  buy  at  US  auctions  on-line   and then  re-sell  in China   at some  fair  profit (I do  know  their  net  profit  margins  on  VMIPBs  and they  are  wafer  thin ) 

Fact  is that  Western  buyers  will  not  pay  much  more  than  US$ 1- 2 K  for    a   work  by a  modern  artist  because   99%  of    western collectors  have  no  real  eye  for    art    

As  far as  I can  ascertain the  majority  of  VMIPBs   by   famous   living  artists  are  now   sold  to  Chinese collectors   who   are well aware  of the  various  scams    and   thus  avoid them,  even  though  they have  very deep  pockets  and  can  easily  afford  to pay  prices   well  into  the  US$  several tens of  thousands   for    genuine  bottles  by  genuine    top-ranked  artists.

I  even  saw  that   some  top artists  have  been  buying  back their  bottles  and  then  re-selling  them  at 10x  the   prices 

There's  one  tiny  VMIPB  now  on sale  in  HK   at  CAC  for    HK$1  million   -  presumably  on the  off  chance  that a  super   rich   but  ignorant  tourist    may  buy  it  "because  if the  price  tag is  HK$1  million  it must be  genuine"  ! 

99%  (OK  90% !) of  Western  collectors  only  buy  for  investment   value  and  so they  only  trust   legitimate  dealers  like  Clare  and  Michael  Chu    who can  vouch  for  provenance  -  which means  ultimate re-sale  value, thus    true  investment  value.

How  else   did  Hugh  Moss  become  so  rich  that he  can bid  US$  millions  to  buy  back the  bottles  that  he  once  bought  for  George  Bloch  ? 

When  my   humble  collection   was only 12  bottles   Clare Chu visited  my  home  and   exclaimed  that  I  was  THE  first   collector  she  ever  met  who  bought   for  pure  LOVE.

Since then  I  consistently  bought  for  LOVE, and  in  so  doing  accidentally  bought a  lot  of  bottles    painted  by  Zhang  Limin   which  Da  Yong  had  carelessly   signed  of    as    Jiang Hua  ( and  once  even    as  Liu  Jiang Hua !)

I called   DY this  evening  and   challenged  him on the   great   S'Pore   Liu  Jianghua  scam  - and  he  confessed

I  even  have a  "Da  Yong"  bottle  bought  via  David  Osborne   for  US$475.50   which  DY   sold  to  WXS  and   WXS   signed  off on it as  a  genuine  DY  bottle 

Would  you  care to  buy  it  from  me @ US$475  ?    " A genuine  DY"

Postage free ! 

When I  found  out  that   Chinese  Arts and  Crafts   in HK   took a  66%  commission  on any bottle  they  sold  me  I  went  back and  paid the   artists  in Hengshui   a  fair  price    in  recompense 

When I  discovered  one  Grand  Master ahead  of  time  I  paid  him what  for  me  was a  vast  fortune   for  half a  dozen  of  his best bottles    and  he  was  astounded   at  my   price  which was far  more than  he  ever  expected. Now  even  just  one  of  his   worst  bottles is  on sale  at  WXS's    Hengshui   shop  at  more than  I  paid  for   half a    dozen   of  his  very  best  bottles  (and    WXS  shop  prices  are  the  real  thing  -  no hidden  mark ups  there)

Did  I  buy  for  investment ?  Did  I  cheat  him ?   Would I ever  re-sell  any  of the  bottles    for  profit ? 
NO  to all  three  questions

In  fact  the  only  bottle  I ever  resold  was  a   WXS  bottle   which was  up  for  action    at the   first  Bloch  Bonhams  sale.  Everyone  in the   auction   room   knew  I  wanted to  own  just  one  real   WXS  bottle    as  a  kind  of    tribute  the  Greatest   of  Greatest  Masters      so  no-one  bid  in the   auction   room .  There  was  only  one  other  bidder  who was  on-line    from Singapore    and finally  I  won -  I  think  because  I  was   wildly    waving  my  bidding  paddle    and  so   whoever  was    handling  the  on-line  bidding  told   the    Singapore  customer  that  "there's  crazy   western  man   here who  won't   give  up"

 Imagine  my  total  surprise  to  find  out much  later   that  it  was  in fact  my  best friend   Yeo  Konghoo   who   was  bidding  against  me! 

 Yeo has   taught me  more than  anyone   about  IPBs  ( and the   SCAMs)   

When I  saw   Yeo's  amazing  collection  of  WXS  bottles  (one for  every  year that  WXS  painted)   I  offered  my  bottle   back to him  at exactly    what I  paid  Bonhams   because   I  knew  it   rightfully  belonged  in  his  collection, not  mine. 

It  later   turned  out  to  be  one  of the  most  important   of   WXS  bottles  ever  painted  and  was  featured    in  a  major  publication   about  WXS's   epic   works . 

I  don't   regret  for a   single   moment  selling  it  to  Yeo  for   zero  profit   even  though  I  could  have   asked    twice  or  three  times  the  price - which  I'm  sure  he  could  happily  have  paid .  Because  I  value   my  friendship  with  Yeo  beyond  all  possible  words  and the  bottle   does    rightly   belong  in his  collection, not mine     

Yes  - I feel   deeply for  the   artists  in   China  and  their  low  incomes.  I  have  tried  to   support  several  of them   and  my   2 x  ICSBS  articles  will, I  hope,  help  in a  small  way    to  promote   REAL   art  inside a  bottle

But  I  tell  you  that  those  bottles   DY  entrusted  to  you  were  never  painted  by  him

I   visited  DY's  home a  couple  of  times  -  it is  HUGE  - a    6,000   sq  foot palace  (and that's  just one of  his  homes)

Meanwhile    Hu Xiaoran's "studio"  is his    garage  in the  basement  of  his   block   with   only    dim   artificial  light  and   Sun Honglin's  studio is a    dusty  desk  inside a   dusty window  in an  even  dustier    apartment

I  do like   DY  and  we   will  always  be  friends  -  but  please   don't  plead  that  his  eyesight is  failing  at   mid  40s 

Some of  the most   expert  and    minutely  detailed    bottles  I  ever  bought  were  by  Li  Shouxun   who  is  much older  than  DY

I  am not  sure  if  you  ever    got a  copy  of  my  DB   but  if  not  then  you really  do need  to  buy a  copy

US$ 500   and  I  will  even  throw  in the   fake  DY  bottle   which I now  hate ! 

Hard  words   -  yes  !  But we  need  hard  words  on these  issues 

The  last  bottle  you  posted  - the  black and  white   "Huang Shan"   landscape    was painted    by  a    junior  student   :  a  copy  of  one of  Sun  Honglin's    special   style - and  not  even a  good  copy  at  that.

 I  once  bought a  much  better   copy  of  Sun Honglin's   style  for  RMB 360  at  WXS's   shop  in  Hengshui

RMB  50,000 ?    More  like   RMB 500    (of  which  most  would  be  the  actual  blank  bottle)

Last  time  I  visited   Hengshui  in  May  2014    I  saw   ( and  even  photographed)   3   different artists'   copies of  Fu  Guoshun's   signature   works.    Each   bottle was    signed   with the  real  artist's  name   - all  Ji  School   junior  artists    that  I  never  heard  of  before  -     so there  was  no  attempt  to  pass  off  the  bottles  as  really  by  FGS   (The  only real  FGS  bottle  was on  private  sale  in the  VIP   showroom   at  10 x  the  price  of the  best  knock off   copy-styles  -  it  was  actually  the  highest  price   bottle  in the   whole  private   show  room  -  about  US$ 30,000)

The   real  tragedy  of  all  this   is  not    scams  per  se  .   It's  the  fact  that  no-one   will  ever  trust a   DY    signed   bottle  again  for  all  his  life  -  or  at least  till this  thread  is  long  since   forgotten  in  cyberspace  -  or  until  he   assumes  a new  pen name

I have  counted  up  to   6  pen names   for   some   artists. Even  WXS's  name  is  not  his real  name  ! 

But cyberspace   has  nasty  habit  of  living forever    and  I now  deeply  regret the  fact  that  I endorsed   DY  in the  closing  words  of  my  part 2  ICSBS   article  -  now  in the   side bar 

Cheers

Peter


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« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 08:21:41 pm by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2015, 09:25:58 pm »

Hello  Pin and  All

After  I  called  DY  the  other  evening  he  has  sent  me   four  new  bottle  pics

All the  bottles  are  very  good  (I especially  like  #3 with the  lightning  strike)   and I  would  happily  pay   RMB10 - 20 K  for  it  IF I KNEW  WHO THE  REAL  ARTIST  IS 

But  one  does  not  have to  be  even the  slightest  art  appreciator   to  see that no  artist  could  ever  paint  such  four  different   styles   (nor to have  photographed  them   so  carelessly)

Every  bottle  pic I ever   received   from  a  real  artist  was  meticulously  photographed 

When I  bought  the  Liu  Jianghua    catalog   via  Richard (who I am  100%  certain  sold  it  in good  faith)  I was  immediately  puzzled  at the  six  or  seven  different  painting  styles   in the book    and I asked  myself  how    anyone  could  paint  so many  different styles  in such a  short  period  of  time ??!!

Then  I    did a  double  take  and   realized that  THAT is  my  bottle  and  also  THAT  one   and  THAT  ONE .....   !!!

Even  some of  the  bottle  shapes  were   so unusual  that  I have never seen  anything  like  them  outside the  Liu  Jianghua / DY scam : I have  mirror  image  bottle  shapes  on my  display  shelves   and I have never  seen  any  other artist  paint  in those    strangely  shaped  bottles  before  nor  since


What happened  was  that  I had  accidentally  bought  what  were  obviously   earlier  versions  of the  bottles  DY  sold  to  Liu  Jianghua  as  his  "fake"  works.  Most of them I now  realize  were  painted  by  Zhang  Limin  in his    junior student  years  (and they  are  all  very  good  bottles -  just  so  tragic  that  they  are  now  attributed  to  this  Liu  Jianghua  man   - whoever  he  is  -  does  he  even  exist ? ) 

The  loop  closes firmly  (chain of  evidence)   because  I  bought  all the  bottles  a short  while  after  the  Liu  Jianghua  book was  published   and   the  shop  owner  in SH   who  sold me the  bottles   told  me   she   had  very  close  dealings   with  DY,  from  whom  she  bought  most  of her  really  good  bottles  which she  sold  privately  to serious  collectors  like me

YES  -    DY    has  just sent  me   4   pics  of  very  good  bottles

But  NO    he   surely   did not  paint a   single  one   of  them

I do  have a  couple  of  real  DY bottles  which I  bought  via  Jill Guo Jie :  his real   style  is  actually  rather  bland    but  very  distinctive  and  personal 

What a  waste  of  talent  that  he  has  betrayed  his  own  name

Cheers

Peter

PS  :  I  can  and  will   forgive  and   forget.  Forgiveness  is  the  single  most  important   word  in the   world.

But  this  thread   will / must  linger  on  in cyberspace   for ever  Sad




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« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 10:01:14 pm by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2015, 10:18:10 pm »

Hi Pin,

You have a lovely baby girl, she is just so cute. A painted bottle is a great gift for the baby I think.Smiley I might contact one of the artist to have any kids painted.Smiley

Did you carefully check the portrait bottle? somehow I feel too flat for the painting, please forgive me if I am wrong, I think its questionable if the bottle is really painted, it might be a photo enhanced bottle( could be partially painted) , the bottom of the portrait won't be look that clean,  also some of the detail on the cloth are not necessary painted if its a real painted portrait.

I just wish that Da Yong won't give out a photo enhanced bottle as a gift,  I wish my assumption is totally wrong.

Steven
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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2015, 11:36:21 pm »

Hi Pin,

You have a lovely baby girl, she is just so cute. A painted bottle is a great gift for the baby I think.Smiley I might contact one of the artist to have any kids painted.Smiley

Did you carefully check the portrait bottle? somehow I feel too flat for the painting, please forgive me if I am wrong, I think its questionable if the bottle is really painted, it might be a photo enhanced bottle( could be partially painted) , the bottom of the portrait won't be look that clean,  also some of the detail on the cloth are not necessary painted if its a real painted portrait.

I just wish that Da Yong won't give out a photo enhanced bottle as a gift,  I wish my assumption is totally wrong.

Steven

Amazing... I thought the exact same thing Steven... I looked real close, and kept thinking it looked like a photo..

The only thing is, that the babies smile is different.. So unless Pin sent more than one photo, that part threw me off..

I hesitated to say anything as did not want to disappoint Pin..

Better macro pics of the image would help a lot..

Good eye Steven...
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2015, 12:07:39 am »

Hi  Pin,

I  don't  think that    your  beautiful  baby's  face  is a  photo- enhanced    copy

Normally  photo - enhanced  fake  inside  painted  bottles   seem to have a   dark   border  along the  bottom

See  the   thread  on   this  subject   elsewhere

VMIPB   artists  can  paint   with  incredible  accuracy    -  just  check  the  cat  pic  of my  own   Persian  cat    in  part 2  of  my  article    which  was  done  by a  senior  Li  Shouxun  student

Actually the   only  way  to  test  for a  photo-enhanced  bottle  is to    take a   digital  pic  of  part of the   bottle  in   close-up  macro mode  and then  blow  up the  pic  many times   in your  computer (  32 X  or  more) . 

 If  it's a    photo fake  the    pic   will   go   fuzzy  whereas a  real  IPB   will  show the  minute  brush  strokes  (and  actually  if  you look  closely    it's  not  an  EXACT  copy   - look  round the  neck  areas  ) 

And  where  is  DY's  signature,  date  and   tribute  to  you ?   If  an  artist  gifts a  portrait   to anyone   he  personally signs  and  dates  the   work   and  addresses     the  bottle  to  the   recipient 

(OK  -  my  cat bottle  was   signed  on the    side   -    one could  hardly accept  that an  artist  would  address a  bottle  to a  cat  "in  person"  )

There's a huge  thread  on this   whole  topic, most of  which  I  wrote   several  years   ago

I attach  my  own  photo-fake   example   and   a  real  copy  painting   taken from the  original    oil  painting

Strangely the photo  fake    has  left  to   right   reversed - which is  obviously  not the  case    with   your  bottle

Commission  portraits like  this  cost  only a   couple  of  RMB  thousands     even  today  with  elevated  prices

Cheers

Peter

PS  -  Correction  to P213 (A)    -  it  does  NOT pretend  to  be a   Sun Honglin bottle  but  Wu  Weitao  obviously   copied  the   bottle   from  SHL's  catalog ! 




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« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 01:02:43 am by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2015, 09:26:41 am »

Hi Peter,

I am still not convinced  that its real painted bottle, when you see the painting technique was improved a lot during these years, so was the photo enhanced technique.

I have no doubt the young artist can paint very very accurate, But they should know which part should be accurate , and which part not necessary. Like the Cat bottle you have, AS WSJ know exactly which part is the focus, so the face of the cat was painted brighter than the original photo, which stands out a lot more.  The pattern on the baby's cloth are not that important, so normally the artist won't paint so accurate, some pattern (like the red dots on the edge) will not be painted, but  it was copied exactly at the right spot. Which led me suspect it could be a photo enhanced one.

-Pin, I really didn't try to disappoint you by any means, and I wish some details of the painting can prove that I was wrong.

Steven
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2015, 09:44:06 am »

Dear Pin,

    First and most important: You have a beautiful baby! Mazal Tov! (Congratulations)

    Second, I agree with what you wrote. All this is part of Chinese Art & Culture.

  Best to you and all, as we start the Day of Atonement.
At the risk of offending Peter (or should I write, "Although I will offend Peter...", Peter?),
I want to thank everyone on the Forum for their friendship and support,
and I want to apologise if I offended in any way over the past year, by commission or omission (even you, Peter!).
Best to all,
Joey
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2015, 10:18:01 am »

Hi Steven :

Thanks !!!! She is my precious, my teacher and my student !!! Grin

The bottle is painted... Look thru it with my 12X and do see all the paint strokes .... Actually with the bottle in hand, you will be able to see that the larger area and also the major lines like the eyelid are painted with a 2X

I do also hope that the painting can be a little bit more 3D...the face is a little broader than the photo too.....but at least I can recognize my baby on the bottle....not a little monkey....hahaha  Roll Eyes

Pin
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2015, 10:28:05 am »

Will take some macro photo of the bottle this weekend if my baby give me permission to do so....

Cheers and thanks to all

Pin

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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

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