Large Porcelain Table Bottle, Mask Handles- Jingdezhen Ware?

[YT]

Dear Kevin,

The three bottles that you are comparing with in ‘reply 17’ are indeed earlier than your bottle.
1.   https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19305/lot/14/ This imitation turquoise has even copied the real oxidised turquoise where they have turned greenish instead of blue. Mask handle is carved to make this imitation more realistic.
2.   https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22949/lot/1001/ This bottle comes with a Dickers provenance. Just looked at the fine enamel painting of the flowers and the overall bluish rock(popular in JiaQing reign although can be found in DaoGuang porcelains). The photo of the side profile is quite blur but we can see the wear and tear due it’s protrusion and actual usage. It is quite nicely carved and fitting of this small bottle. I was the under bidder of this lot.
3.         http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2004/chinese-works-of-art-n07974/lot.105.html I cannot find the bottle you posted but found an earlier Indian Lotus Blue and White porcelain. In this type of formal stylised design, you will always see the repeat pattern being strictly adhere to. Although hand painted, they will still looked neat. There is no set pattern in your bottle so does not belong to this group.

Hopefully you don’t mind me doing a bit of research on the bottles you posted. I just cannot understand from the limited photos linked to your written points. We always like to looked at a snuff bottle and question ourselves for any suspicious points.
For the more experienced collector like Joey, he only need one glance at the real bottle.

Cheers,
YT

[RW]

Dear YT

 No question from your post, the 1st and the 3rd pieces are older than the one I show. However,  with the bursting flowers against a complex vine pattern as to this one, we would not expect to see the same level of consistency in the pattern as we might for a blue and white one of an Indian lotus flower. The themes are completely different, and the one in your post has a lot in common with some Kangxi patterns i have seen, so yours stayed within the standard

In the link below that you were looking for, you will see yet another style of flower used in a vine pattern. In that photo, the floral bottle character as I maintained earlier shows weak vine development, a lot of frilly highlights in place of detail, especially noticeable in the missing details to all of the small leaves in the makeup of the pattern. Pretty typical of late 19th C blue and white vine and flower patterns

 Re mask quality, the flat, poorly defined character  for the handles by the late 19th C was illustrated by bottle # 2,  representing the standard at that point in time. My point re the age question to Giovanni on this aspect is that as we know mask details diminished on bottles over time as illustrated by the two examples almost in extremes, so on a timeline then, the masks to the one I show with heavy 3 dimensional details for the eyes, jowls, snout would match the quality standard at a point in time in between the 1st and the 2nd bottles. And, it should be noted I am not trying to date the bottle on that characteristic alone

 No one ever disagreed, we have to look at all qualities in a bottle to determine which characteristic shows the latest style, and here is the link from Christie's for the two blue and white bottles, conveniently for comparison in the timeline for dating purposes, the one on the left is an early Republic blue and white bottle of rounded form, same form as the one I show next to a bottle with a flower and vine pattern dated to 1880.
With the Republic snuff bottle, gone are the details to the porcelain, deep base or masks. Blue and white became blue and white with red and gold highlights - unlike the 19th C blue and whites, as might be the expectation for the bottles then, rather than porcelains in general -at a time when snuff use was all but abandoned

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/two-blue-and-white-porcelain-snuff-bottles-5658840-details.aspx

W/respect to trying to date the one I show to the Republic period with the habit and market in rapid decline and lower porcelain bottle standards already established,  the maker would not have chosen to add at a great expense several 19th C features, namely a deep base, fairly well defined mask handles which would predate the standard set by around 1880, clear dotted arrow pattern at the neck rather than an unclear or brushed pattern, then use what would have been a modern but complex vine pattern for the Republic period, when a simpler 18th/19thC pattern would have worked in creating a piece for any revival market:

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2015/snuff-bottles-from-mary-george-bloch-collection-part-x-hk0576/lot.175.html

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20089/lot/5357/

2nd "Blue and white" in the Republic style, dated 1916: https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19621/lot/148/

Kindest regards

Kevin

[rpfstoneman]

Kevin,

Was looking through some secondary auction house sites this morning and came across a similar designed bottle to your initial post. 

See link: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/40312615_antique-chinese-blue-and-white-porcelain-snuff-bottle

This bottle currently up for auction is nowhere near as nice as yours, but I'm just passing it along to those that may wish see a comparison. 

Charll

[George]

I think this is the first time have seen a Chenghua Mark Charll..

I think both bottles are 20th...

[RW]

Charll
Many thanks for your post. I too spotted this one-and I agree with you on the quality issue

I have found several similar bottles sold as recently as last year by smaller auction houses with obvious overstated age claims (a matter of oversight rather than an exaggeration(?)

this one was also marked, always a flag raiser for me

http://www.eldreds.com/auctions/detail/item/201463/sale/797/dept/35

Kind regards

Kevin

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Kevin,

      Not  "a matter of oversight rather than an exaggeration", but a matter of intentional mis-representation or, at best, willful suspension of disbelief. Both I consider criminal in an auction house or seller with claims to be trusted or relied on.
Best,
Joey

I have found several similar bottles sold as recently as last year by smaller auction houses with obvious overstated age claims (a matter of oversight rather than an exaggeration(?)

this one was also marked, always a flag raiser for me

http://www.eldreds.com/auctions/detail/item/201463/sale/797/dept/35

Kind regards

Kevin

[RW]

Agreed, very well said Joey- Thanks you

 And on this reality, joining the forum is a great idea- to become better informed so as to be able to avoid those pitfalls we constantly face in the pursuit of what is for many an expensive passion