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Large Porcelain Table Bottle, Mask Handles- Jingdezhen Ware?

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Author Topic: Large Porcelain Table Bottle, Mask Handles- Jingdezhen Ware?  (Read 1440 times)
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« on: August 23, 2015, 08:59:44 am »

Hello Everyone,

 This is a large underglaze porcelain piece for the table; it stands 3 5/8" H, (9.2cm)
I have seen the vertical pointed arrow pattern at the top of the neck in other known pieces of Jingdezhen ware, and I would like to know if this might also be from there, either by the quality or if it could be identified by the overall character and patterns around the body and neck, a peony scroll pattern with a deliberate and neatly done "arrow" pattern around the neck
Also would like to know when it was made
 There is a small chip to the foot ring

 Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated
Thank you

Kind regards


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« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 03:31:12 pm by Kevin » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2015, 09:51:07 am »

Dear Kevin,
what I like of your bottle are the base and foot, which are usually not so good on relatively recent bottles. By looking at those details only, I would say that your bottle could be mid 19th century. But the style of the decoration is not convincing, much later in my opinion. Let see what others thinks about your bottle.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2015, 11:40:28 am »

Yes, I agree with Giovanni.. The style of collar decoration is not like any I have seen on 19th bottles.. I think pretty recent bottle.
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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2015, 12:41:42 pm »

Dear George

 I have come across several older porcelain bottles from well established sources,( not ebay) with the same collar decoration. But, as with the one pictured below in comparison, there are variations. This file for the one pictured comes from an auction at Bonhams, and it was described as from early to mid 19thC and that it's from Jingdezhen:
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20211/lot/22/
 

My trouble with Republic pieces has been with the blandness in shape and decor, mostly cylindrical and rectangular for easy production w/the largest percentage of these produced for export w/ marks, rather than a manufacture for the more discerning Chinese market

The floral pattern is more elaborate than I would expect from recent works


Best regards

Kevin


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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2015, 01:02:03 pm »

Dear Kevin,

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but the two types of design elements are totally different.
You can not compare the decoration around the neck of your bottle with that on this bottle sold at Bonham's.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2015, 01:40:44 pm »

Hello Joey
Thank you
No bubble bursted  Smiley
my point was there are many variations to the "arrow" pattern at the top of the neck from 19th C bottles, not just recent bottles as I had read in earlier comments.
 The pattern that I show here, was made with more deliberate paint marks w/greater definition than the other at Bonhams

 And there are many variants to it, some recent bottles up to the 1930's-but rather poorly done- rather undefined shapes, lacking a deep foot ring. Those mostly show export marks, not meant for the discerning home market

 W/the question of age then comes the examination of all characteristics combined-  the deep foot ring, a floral and vine pattern, commonly found in  19thC decorative objects

Kindest regards

Kevin
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2015, 02:41:57 pm »

Dear Kevin,
you are right that, for determining the age, all the combined characteristics must be considered. But if among them one single characteristic is pointing to a later date, then the whole piece is later. Although I am still green in the snuff bottles field, I must say that I have never seen the arrow pattern stylized in so simply way, and, perhaps more important, I have never seen the flowers among the vine pattern drawn that way. Have you already found flowers drawn in that exact way? I haven’t, and although I can’t say that I have seen hundreds of bottles, I can say that I have seen many, really many porcelain b&w painted pieces but I have never seen that flower. In fact I can’t say which kind of flower is that, it is an imaginary one to me. 
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2015, 04:22:36 pm »


Kevin,

From my perspective your bottle is likely the last quarter of the 19th century into the first couple of decades of the 20th (i.e., 1875-1920).  The ‘Arrowhead and Dot Pendant’ neck motif on snuff bottles according to John Ault (ICSBS Snuff Bottle Journal, Autumn 1993) first appeared in the Tongzhi Period (1862-1874).  The version that John Ault is referring to is a pattern of two dots between each arrowhead pendent with single dot below the arrow.  The neck pattern on your bottle is presumed to be a later variation to those produced in the Tongzhi is my thought.   During the late 19th century there are a number of square shaped bottles out there that have a similar neck design as your bottle.  Whenever I see this neck pattern as expressed by your bottle I automatically presume 1875 or later.
 
Hope this helps, Charll   
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2015, 04:27:29 pm »

Dear Giovanni,
 
The main body shows a peony and scroll pattern, and although, I have not found it done exactly the same way after many searches on other Chinese porcelains, I have found much older pieces with a wide blue brush stroke for background and then fine definition marks added to create the flowers, but not for this pattern in particular.

Part of the key here may be that the artist chose to create each of the "arrows" using 6 neatly arranged dots, rather than as with the Bonhams piece, only 3 not well defined dots on every other arrow. The number 6 is an auspicious number in Chinese culture, representing wealth, with it's roots in Canton, and later spreading as such to other regions there

Kind regards

Kevin
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2015, 04:45:00 pm »

Dear Charll,

    Actually, between them the late John Ault and Robert Kleiner documented this design as far back as late Qianlong, but not as it is represented on the neck of Kevin's bottle. This could be late Guangxu to Republic, but I agree with Giovanni.
Best,
Joey



Kevin,

From my perspective your bottle is likely the last quarter of the 19th century into the first couple of decades of the 20th (i.e., 1875-1920).  The ‘Arrowhead and Dot Pendant’ neck motif on snuff bottles according to John Ault (ICSBS Snuff Bottle Journal, Autumn 1993) first appeared in the Tongzhi Period (1862-1874).  The version that John Ault is referring to is a pattern of two dots between each arrowhead pendent with single dot below the arrow.  The neck pattern on your bottle is presumed to be a later variation to those produced in the Tongzhi is my thought.   During the late 19th century there are a number of square shaped bottles out there that have a similar neck design as your bottle.  Whenever I see this neck pattern as expressed by your bottle I automatically presume 1875 or later.
 
Hope this helps, Charll   

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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2015, 05:01:04 pm »

Thanks to everyone for the input and lessons learned Smiley

I am leaning towards a rebus on this for the deliberately distinctive 6 dot arrows, for wealth and actually 3 more across, standing for the 3 stages in a man's life, birth marriage and death
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2015, 08:01:53 pm »

Dear Kevin,

    With such a post, you MUST be Chinese! No Westerner would write (or think) something so esoteric!
Best,
Joey


Thanks to everyone for the input and lessons learned Smiley

I am leaning towards a rebus on this for the deliberately distinctive 6 dot arrows, for wealth and actually 3 more across, standing for the 3 stages in a man's life, birth marriage and death
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2015, 01:37:59 am »

Dear Kevin,
sorry but I don't agree with you. You admit that you have never seen a lotus flower drawn in that exact way, and this is of absolute importance in my view. It seems by your words that you have a certain experience on Chinese decoration on porcelain. Well you must admit that it doesn't exist the concept of "the painter took his liberty" or "he freely painted it that way". The “phantasy painted” objects are all dated at least after the Republic period. You will not find a 19th century lotus drawn in a so simple manner.
At least, according to my experience.
Dear Charll, what you said is interesting. I have never seen that motif around the mouth painted that way, I am particularly referring to the horizontal strokes, i.e. the upper part of the motif. I have always seen it thicker and in form of a complete ring, not interrupted that way. Have you seen that on bottles that are surely dated to the late 19th century? If so, it is good to know that.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2015, 04:58:23 am »

Dear Giovanni
  there is much evidence of abstract imagery used by early Chinese painters in their wares, and here are 3 examples of that, all 19th C, also from a Bonhams catalogue. I have never seen these images done in the same manner,  however, these are old pieces.

Abstraction in decorative arts has for centuries been the Chinese way, so I cant fault the painter here in the choice made for the flower image- with many examples found using broad strokes for background color on bottles, and other porcelains
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22282/lot/4168/

The 2nd photo showing a vine pattern with broad stroke painting incorporated on a bottle, early 19th.

 I think we would agree that the Republic period bottles were meant to be mass produced and homogenous in design and shape mostly rectangular with the  shallow foot base.
 
as mentioned earlier the distinctive arrow pattern was done deliberately and neater than many early 19thC  examples, the 3rd photo below and the one prior.

In comparison, the one I am showing was finely done for the discerning home market when snuff use was still in abundance, with a slight reference to a rebus theme.

Kind regards

Kevin


 


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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2015, 05:54:57 pm »

Dear Kevin,
we are talking about two different things. I know very well about abstract painting on Chinese porcelain, the best example being the ultra-xieyi style. But I never talk about abstract painting regarding your snuff bottle. We are not talking about the same issue, and being difficult to me to explain better my mind, I don't insist further. But let me say that I personally consider a very free interpretation that one related to supposed meanings for the six and three dots. Everything is possible of course, but in my opinion there are no arguments for that connection; why that one and not another one? But I won't discuss that, because I have no argument, exactly as nobody has I think, for saying that for example the three dots are not related to the three stages of man's life, the same way as to something else trio. Not to be too picky, but for example the six vertical dots are five in the side view of the bottle. And then? Six dots meaning wealth on the wider sides and five dots meaning what on the narrow sides?
I continue with my idea about the age of your bottle. We have members here with a very long experience and I would really know if some of them has seen a 19th century bottle with the flowers drawn that way. 
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2015, 12:36:40 am »

Will let others more experienced like Giovanni confirm what he is trying to say..  I do agree that the flowers are not drawn as expected for 19th..

It is still a lovely bottle Kevin, and will look nice in your display case !
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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2015, 12:53:54 am »

Dear Kevin,

For blue and white old bottles, we are more concern about the fineness of the drawing.
Your bottle has some good advantage of the rounded glazed base and the colouring all within lines.

Your comparison of the Bonhams 2nd bottle, https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22412/lot/8121/
This bottle is not 19th century. It is stated as, "Dated by inscription to 1873" but overall it is modern.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2015, 04:45:42 am »

Many thanks YT and Giovanni
 
Dear Giovanni
 Setting aside the lucky number theory for the noticeable design change at the top, (#'s 3, 5 & 6) the definition to the floral pattern and to the mask handles with comparisons to dated bottles may give a better clue on the dating question

 The  details of the mask in the 1st photo are noticeably different from that shown in the 2nd one, and in the latter, the handles are just an afterthought, just not there. The 1st is of a very nice turquoise porcelain bottle dated to around 1770. It has clearly defined features to the ring and all around the face. The 2nd  was dated to 1820 to 1900, with the defining features all but gone, pretty standard fare by the 1900's. However, that is not the case for the one I am showing with clear markings for the eyes nose and jowl with a depth of 5/16ths, unlike the flat mask pictured. The design then in question would fit somewhere in between the 2 pictured in a timeline
The 3rd photo shows 2 blue and white bottles from Christie's, the tall one pictured was dated 1800 to 1880 (the 1st 19010- 1920)  In comparison with the one I am showing, the dotted line arrows, had changed to brush marks by the 1880's, and the floral pattern definition in the one pictured is lacking in any comparisons, mainly showing lots of frilly highlights, and less definition, however, the flowers were done in the same manner with highlighting

Dear YT
 Smiley)) I think we saw the same bottle, maybe in different sales?  unsure I couldnt bring it up by the url given, however, these were my thoughts exactly- 1 slipped past them in their June of 2010 sale(?) But I agree a modern piece with the rectangular shape as mentioned earlier as commonly found w/ the Republic pieces, v. good, thank you


Kindest regards


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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2015, 06:06:31 am »

Dear Kevin,
I am really not following you on this, sorry. If I understand you correctly, you think that your bottle must be dated somewhere between the first and the second bottle you have shown here above because of the handles’ shape. It is a hasty conclusion in my view, you can’t take a conclusion based on two examples only. This conclusion could be valid only of ALL the bottles of late 19th century has the same type of handles, but I am not sure if this is the reality; it depends on quality I think. My English is not so good, if I understood you correctly it seems that you think that the arrows on the neck has simple dots until a certain date, after which the dots turns into brush stroke? It sounds strange, I rather would think the opposite, but I am not titled to say if this is true or not, so I will let this to others.
Again if I understood correctly, the lotus flowers of the third bottle are in your opinion drawn in the same way of your bottle? If so, that is obviously not true. By talking about the “way they are drawn” I am referring to the extremely simple contour lines of the petals on your bottle, two identical opposite curved line with the short line at the tip. It is quite childish compared to the ones on Christie’s bottle, although I really don’t see in that bottle the quality of a Christie’s bottle.
Let see what other’s think about your points.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2015, 05:56:05 pm »

Thank you Giovanni
 
The only points I want to make in the recent post are that the handles on the bottle I show are of better quality than that which was pretty much the standard by the late 1800's with a character that might have been found around the 3rd quarter of the 19th C

You have an appreciation for the floral pattern on the 1880 bottle which I find paling in comparison,  lacking in definition and it looks like it was done very quickly - no clear definitive pattern as opposed to the complex peony and vine pattern I show

The bottle next to the one pictured from Christie's, also of rounded form, and in comparison poorly painted, much more so than the other-

That one is near expectations from Republic period pieces, none of the character in quality to the one I show w/ peeling paint and blobs (birds)on the branches

The neck pattern on this one has greater definition than every other bottle pictured in earlier posts, and all of which were dated to the 1800's. The upward pointed arrow pattern like the mask handles, had all but become an afterthought by the 20th C as shown

and as we already know the deep foot base feature was also gone by the Republic period

Kind regards

Kevin

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