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Large Conglomerate Bottle

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RW
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« on: August 22, 2015, 12:48:43 pm »

Hi

 I believe this one has some interesting character, namely a fine dull wax finish, a tarnished metal insert to the mouth, convex foot surrounded by a flat rim, a large protrusion to one side, very well hollowed.
 The protrusion which is larger than what I have seen on any other bottle, and may be appropriate for the size of this one fits well into the palm, giving the bottle a more tactile feel when held
2 7/8" H

Thank you for looking
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 02:53:56 am by Kevin » Report Spam   Logged

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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2015, 02:50:28 pm »

Dear Kevin,
please delete your pictures and try to post them resized. A size of 800 - 900 pixels maximum is more than enough. It is not possible to look at so big pictures, besides being totally useless.
Thank you.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2015, 02:53:17 pm »

Dear George,
I thought that you had fixed a limit size of 250 kB, but evidently my memory is wrong.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2015, 05:26:49 pm »

Dear George,
I thought that you had fixed a limit size of 250 kB, but evidently my memory is wrong.
Kind regards
Giovanni


I did, but then there were some requests to be able and attach larger files, so I changed it..
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2015, 11:24:21 pm »

Dear Giovanni

 Thank you for your advice, and your patience. the new photos are up

Kind regards
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2015, 02:39:17 am »

Dear Kevin,

Greatly appreciate your photo configuration change. It is now much easier to view in the phone and also will not clog up the valuable space that George has kindly provided us.

Your bottle looks to be the bulbous type and I am quite split between the material being a puddingstone or a conglomerate stone. The puddingstones that I have handled were very much polished and heavy.

Thanks for sharing.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2015, 08:03:45 am »

Dear YT
 Thank you for your post.
This one is heavy, weighing 7 oz or 220gms,  and it has a fine polished surface, no rough spots. The off white quartz areas have a fine silicate grain under magnification, with small variations in color through out

Kind regards

Kevin
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2015, 09:43:45 am »

Dear Kevin,
thank you. Much better now. I like very much your bottle and I beleive that it has some good age, although I can't say if it is 18th or 19th century. The fact that it is well hollowed is a good point. I have a very similar bottle, and strange enough, my bottle too has a bronze insert inside the mouth. That is very interesting, I am wondering if this kind of bottles has may be some tendency to brittle so the inner collar was meant to prevent that?
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2015, 09:47:12 am »

Dear Giovanni,
   
   I have seen where bottles from a softer material will often have this interior neck, especially when the stopper has a metal spoon & collar. I also think this bottle may well have some age. I would like to hear Tom's opinion. Actually either Tom or Tom B.

   The foot confuses me. Is there a definite 'rim', where the line curves inward and then straight down, forming an actual 'foot-rim'; or does the foot continue directly from the line of the body of the bottle? If it continues directly, the cut-in foot looks wrong.

Best,
Joey


Dear Kevin,
thank you. Much better now. I like very much your bottle and I beleive that it has some good age, although I can't say if it is 18th or 19th century. The fact that it is well hollowed is a good point. I have a very similar bottle, and strange enough, my bottle too has a bronze insert inside the mouth. That is very interesting, I am wondering if this kind of bottles has may be some tendency to brittle so the inner collar was meant to prevent that?
Kind regards
Giovanni

« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 09:51:37 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2015, 11:10:38 am »

Dear Giovanni

I had read of an example of a stone bottle with the insert that came the palace workshop, 1700's. Sadly, however, there wasn't a picture or reason given for it in the text.

The flat flush footrim feature was a design choice for some early examples,  possibly meant  for the bottle to rest flush on the table surface(?)

(I very much appreciate your advice on the old photos,  with correct sizing to 800 pixels did the trick Smiley

Many thanks

Kind regards

Kevin
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2015, 09:54:47 pm »


   The foot confuses me. Is there a definite 'rim', where the line curves inward and then straight down, forming an actual 'foot-rim'; or does the foot continue directly from the line of the body of the bottle? If it continues directly, the cut-in foot looks wrong.


Hi Kevin,
   
I was waiting to see the answer to Joey's question about the foot/base, but as none has come I will venture to comment on your bottle from the photos and comments that have been made so far.
   
The foot does appear to be 'rimless' from your picture of it. In other words a side view of the bottle standing on a table shows no foot rim, the recess is entirely set within the thickness of the material at the base. I have seen this on a number of mid 19th century agate and jade bottles, so do not agree with Joey that it 'looks wrong'. Usually the recessed area is flat, but sometimes it is convex, as on your bottle.
   
The metal lining at the mouth may be there for the reasons stated by Giovanni and Joey - to strengthen the fragile stone. But I once bought an old rosewood snuff bottle which had a mouth rim of brass, and was missing its stopper. It only occurred to me later that it may actually have been part of an old stopper, the top of which was long lost. Because after I had made and inserted a new one for the bottle, the brass part slid out as a 'sleeve' around the cork when I subsequently pulled out the stopper.

I agree with YT that the stone looks more like a conglomerate (for example 'brecchia': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breccia ) rather than what collectors normally describe as puddingstone. Admittedly, the line of distinction for puddingstone is somewhat blurred, since this is not a geologists' term.

It is always tricky trying to date a bottle from photos, without being able to handle it, especially for plain examples. The overall form and detailing suggest a date from mid 19th century onwards. The older bottles tend to be slightly flatter and less bulbous than this one, although not all.

Regards,
Tom
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2015, 12:13:09 am »

Dear Tom,
     
      The bottles like this which I have seen all were flat or concave on the 'roof' of the footrim. This is convex. If you have seen similar examples, I accept that.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2015, 12:21:45 am »

I too have a few with a foot rim like this that I would safely place on 1850 - 1900 based on provenance. 
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Pat
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2015, 12:51:13 am »

     
      The bottles like this which I have seen all were flat or concave on the 'roof' of the footrim. This is convex. If you have seen similar examples, I accept that.


Dear Joey,
     Granted, I have seen very few with a convex base like this, but they were almost certainly 19th century.

Tom
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2015, 06:00:56 am »

Dear Tom

   I was hoping to find the research in answer to the earlier question re the base,  but I remember having come across a Suzhou school bottle dated to the 1790's which had the same features

The shape and size to the one I am showing interest me in that the one side that stands out gives the bottle a very tactile feel resting comfortably in the palm with a smooth waxed surface

The large sized bottles were preferred by Qianlong, and many were certainly flatter for that period, this one is large and heavy but tactile, and would sit flush and stable on the table with the base design features

Kindest regards
Kevin

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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2015, 06:19:05 am »


The large sized bottles were preferred by Qianlong...


Hi Kevin,

I have heard that the opposite was true - the Qianlong emperor had relatively small hands, and supposedly liked bottles of smaller size. An interesting thought, although I am not sure if there is documentary evidence to substantiate the claim.

Regards,
Tom
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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2015, 06:46:58 am »


   I was hoping to find the research in answer to the earlier question re the base,  but I remember having come across a Suzhou school bottle dated to the 1790's which had the same features

Dear Kevin,

I like your inquisitive questions and your curiousity to question your research. We can help only if you are able to show us photos, links and any other research materials to substantiate.


Dear Tom,

You are right on. QianLong does like smaller snuff bottles due to the difficulty in producing them. His Enamel bottles are the finest and the smallest compared to YongZheng or KangXi.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2015, 06:32:48 pm »

Dear Tom


  Yes, I would be glad to make the effort to find the information and provide links, over the next few days.  Unfortunately, the answer as to why there was this preference was not given in the text, so it has left me with the nagging question on how this could have been when as we would all agree, a smaller bottle would have been more convenient to handle.
  I can only speculate, a large bottle like the one I show would have been perfect for the scholar at his table, one who could appreciate viewing the beauty in nature, as perfect and simple- like the scholar's rocks we all love or the wavy lines or "ghost" patterns in the huanghuali pots or tables, a flush bottle would have meant having a full unencumbered view of the conglomerate pattern in a graceful shape. Such a bottle would have been distinctively large for that purpose, while having a protruding shape that would fit snuggly in the palm of the hand when it needed to be held


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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2015, 10:12:39 pm »

Dear Kevin,

What you say makes sense. One has to bear in mind that tastes inside the Imperial court were essentially different from the tastes of the scholar / literati class. Additionally, as you correctly surmise, snuff bottles were used in a number of different ways - as a mobile container which could be kept in a purse or tucked up a sleeve, as a desk item, as a conversation piece, and so on.

Regards,
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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2015, 10:04:05 am »

Dear All,

    I have owned a number of snuff bottles which were previously the personal possessions of the Qianlong Emperor, 6 or 7 at least.
    They were ALL very small.
    My enamel on copper, #79 in my 1987 catalogue; my black enamel with peonies (Mudan) in blue, yellow, and rose-pink, ex.Martin Schoen collection; my multicoloured single overlay on milk glass, with a Qianlong Yuzhi mark, to give three examples. My marked genuine Muttonfat Jade bottle, now in the Crane Collection; A number of  Imperial Palace Workshops examples (#1, 2, 3, in my 1987 catalogue), among them octagonal and other shaped bottles.
   The Daoguang Emperor's taste ran to larger bottles, though.

  Best,
Joey
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