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August 21, 2017, 08:54:59 am
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Peanuts anyone

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Author Topic: Peanuts anyone  (Read 464 times)
YT
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« on: April 18, 2015, 09:21:42 pm »

Dear all,

Please help to comment.

Carved agate peanuts and bats, 19th century.

Cheers,
YT


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Steven
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2015, 11:13:14 pm »

Hi YT,

Thank you for sharing! A very unique and nice bottle.

I don't have much knowledge on stone bottles, but If let me vote, I will vote the bottle 20th century. Please forgive me if I am guessing wrong.

Steven
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George
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2015, 01:21:23 am »

Well we know two bats is twice the blessings, and just found that peanuts symbolize long life and many sons. Also called the fruit of longevity..

Never seen a peanut carved motif before..  I am inclined to agree with Steven's 20th century date.. Might have to go so far as saying middle to late 20th..

Interesting motif !
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YT
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2015, 01:40:35 am »

Dear Steven and George,

Thanks for your input. Just putting a bottle out that I don't quite understand either. (and our forum is a bit quiet).

It is carved deep into the body in high relief so as to make the peanuts appear in 3D. Christies Paris place the dating at 19th.

Cheers,
YT
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George
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2015, 02:02:20 am »

Really glad you posted it YT.. Not only because it is an interesting bottle, but like you say.. Been pretty quiet so nice to have one to talk about !

I was so far off on the dating YT.. !

One thing that I should have asked for before jumping out with a 20th dating is close up pics for the motif.  I did not think it possible because the rest of the bottle did not strike me as 19th, but maybe we can figure out if the motif was carved with hand tools compared to power tools.  It is hard to tell, but parts of it look like maybe hand tooled. 
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YT
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2015, 02:49:09 am »

Dear George,

Thank you. I don't know how to date agate so glad to have comments on it.

Cheers,
YT


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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2015, 03:54:15 am »

I almost do not want to comment, as I still have a very hard time telling the difference.. But, my best guess is that I see high speed rotary tooled marks within the recessed parts of the peanuts.

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YT
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2015, 03:58:14 am »

LOL!! I can't comment too.

I am guessing there are 3 seeds in that peanut which is quite rare Tongue

Cheers,
YT
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2015, 12:54:05 pm »

Quote
Christies Paris place the dating at 19th.

YT, unless Christies has some information on provenance to show when this bottle was purchased, I'm not sure they could accurately pin down a dating.  Now granted hardstones is one of my weakest areas to ever be making a comment, but my first impression was that your bottle was a 20th century piece also.  I drew this conclusion based on the following:

1) Form.  The bottle has a narrowed oval form typical of what we see in many later and new bottles. The shoulders off the neck and the body above the foot are very round and is at a steep angle off the neck and foot.  I've notice that older bottles of this shape type tend to be less so and their bodies take on more of a rounded rectangle form. 

2) High relief.  The degree of height on the carved relief is atypical on older bottles made for use and tends to occur on bottles made for export and/or as cabinet pieces.

3) Under carving. The way the peanuts are lifted off the bottle by under or caving back underneath the design is a later process in manufacture and design to increase the decorative effect at the expense of functionally.  Such carvings create catch and snag points with removal from pouches or clothing.         

I have seen a number of peanut motif bottles in displays and in various auction and collection catalogs.  All with age as I recall have lower reliefs in the design and the designs taper down to the body of the bottle with no undercutting. 

I'm just providing some food for thought based on past observations rather than on referenced literature and could be wrong on the later dating.  Regardless, it is a very lovely bottle that many of us would cherish.

Charll


 
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

YT
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2015, 07:23:12 pm »

Dear Charll,

I'm perfectly fine with the dating be it 19th or 20th. Moreover Christies has a guarantee to their product for 5 years.

This bottle is quite unique if you compare to the many you have stated and handled.
Just happy to have peanuts to feed my two elephant (bottles). Grin

Cheers,
YT
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Wattana
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2015, 09:59:19 pm »

Dear YT,

I have to agree with all of Charll's points. (He must be clairvoyant, because I cover these points in my "guide to dating hardstone bottles", which is a project in progress, and not shown to anyone yet!)

If I was to ignore the bats and peanuts, and look at this as a plain bottle, I would date it to mid-20th century onwards. The carving provides added clues. Deep undercutting, and the perfectly circular indentations on the peanut shells are both characteristics which point towards the use of modern high speed drills. A look at the interior hollowing would be needed before concluding the dating. As it stands, I would say it has a 20% chance or less of being 19th century.

Tom
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Tom
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George
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2015, 11:00:18 pm »

Yes, all great points from Charll..

I did not know and will now remember about the under carving..

Thanks Charll..
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Joey
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2015, 02:55:40 pm »

I would definitely agree with Steven, Charll and Tom. The wellknown examples have a bottle carved as a Chinese date, with peanuts carved on top.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

rosegl
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2015, 04:22:22 am »

Dear all,

as far as I know, many "classic" peanuts bottles present a carving in pretty high relief with some undercarving (see attached example). Where is the difference other than in the kind of stone?

Regards

Georges



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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2015, 05:15:55 pm »


Georges,

Thanks for the fine example and the counter point.  Would you happen to know the reported age/dating of the example you provided.  My comments were based only on trends that I have observed with older vs newer bottles.   

Charll 
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George
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2015, 05:25:51 pm »

By the way...

Hello Georges !
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rosegl
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2015, 08:08:27 pm »

Dear all,
the bottle I illustrated seems to belong to a well known group of chalcedony called 'peanut agate' bottles. They are normally pebble-shaped, striated to represent jujube, with the ochre-coloured inclusions carved as peanuts (-> rebus "soon a noble son will be born").
There are examples in many published collections e.g. Au Han, Harry Ross = Moss 1971, Bloch, Claire Lawrence, Neal&Frances Hunter, White Orchid, etc.
The dating varies: Daoguang (Sothebys), 1760-1850 (Kleiner), 1780-1850 (Hall).
I'm tempted to date my example to the first half of the 19th century. It has the particularity that the reverse side shows a chiling in the same high relief.
Regards
Georges



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Wattana
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2015, 09:46:17 pm »

Dear Georges,

Thanks for your post. I agree that peanuts are usually shown stuck on a jujube as background. But I think this is the first time I have ever seen a peanut-chilong combination on jujube. Very interesting!

Does anyone know how this combination might read as a 'rebus'?

Regards,
Tom
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Tom
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Steven
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2015, 12:18:38 am »

Hi Georges,

Very nice example!! Thank you for sharing!

-Tom,

 The Peanut and Chilong combination is rare, Peanut (花生), Chilong(螭龙)together means 生意欣荣(wish you have Jubilant business)

Steven
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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2015, 12:32:52 am »

Here is a carved wood with same motif.


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