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Incised Poem

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George
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« on: April 13, 2015, 08:36:08 am »

2 3/8 tall, transparent ( po-li ) glass, neatly incised gilded poem in lishu style script, orchids with butterflies, with unusual variation of a Qianlong nianzhi incised four character mark in seal script . The poem is within a very small 1 1/4 x 1 1/8 area. Raised and shallow recessed foot. Unsure if carved or mould blown, unknown date. 

The following is a most beautifully detailed translation "quoted" from David for the poem. Thank you again David ..

First two sentences/rows
Fragrance of spring suffuses the air,
enjoying the rare gem that you generously share.

I (David) de-emphasize the negative tones of envy, but increase the joy of having the chance to share with a tinge of wish to also own it. For us, we only share "treasures" with close friend, key guests and family, and some older generations treat their orchids more precious then jewels. They literally kept it in large locked shaded cage at the yard, and will take out to enjoy when in bloom or when key guests visit.

The right amount of "envy" with no greed or coveting, is a great compliment to the owner. So this is praising the orchids and make the owner happy.

For the next two sentences/rows,
Noble and true friendship extended,
pure like the moon reflected in still water

I take liberty to interpret what I think it means.

The Angelica and Orchid signify noble characters, scholars, purity and friend. I choose to interpret this as extending a friendship, as I think the writer is "showing" the beautiful/subtle progression of key guest to friend.

 Cheesy My 2 cents, and please keep in mind... I can be a romantic at times and my Chinese is limited. (but my Chinese tutors find it hard to disprove my interpretation easily, and tend to end with using a "grand" scholar's interpretation to over-ride me).

Note: The poem did mention orchids.芝兰 , but while the bottle is mostly traditional, I translated without mentioning orchids, as that would be too literal.




A little fun with a 200x endoscope revealed gas bubbles resulting from trapped gasses during the manufacturing process. Gas bubbles are also often seen in synthetic gemstones and are helpful in identifying the material as synthetic.









A close up of the incised work leaves me unsure if done by hand or some kind of rotary tool. Safe to say not done by a disc/wheel.










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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2015, 11:38:25 am »

George,

Very nice bottle.  It's sounding like the research is becoming as much of a passion as is the acquisition.  Without the bottle being filled it took me a while to realized the full inscription was on one side and the seal, butterflies, and orchid was on the other.  Also, the roughen throat gives the interior hollow the appearance of a bottle; a bottle within a bottle.  A neat side effect.

Charll
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2015, 07:40:13 pm »

Dear George,

How did you know I will log on today for taking a break from training?  Grin  Perfect timing!

I still vote for rotary, but curious what the others will say.

Kindly,
David
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2015, 02:49:45 am »

Dear George,
     A beautiful bottle.


Dear David,
     A beautiful translation.

Thank you both,
From Gozo, Malta
Joey
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2015, 05:24:12 pm »

Thanks guys.. !

Charll,

Yes, absolutely the researching became more of a passion towards this bottle than most.. Spent quite a bit on the bottle, then another 150.00 worth of books looking for clues that might help me date this, learn what type of glass, if it is carved, or mould blown, and what technique was used to do the incise work. After all the books, contacting Christopher Randall, and comparing to other incised examples, I have not been able to really nail this one..

Your right about it being difficult to separate the front from the back without something dark in the bottle. So I filled it with coffee grains.. That also helped a little with getting somewhat better macro pics of the incised work. The endoscope is to powerful at 200X, and the macro on my camera is not getting the results I would like to share and use to compare.






David, this is the closest and most interesting example I can find that is blown up enough for comparison .. The markings within the incised work on this 18th caledon piece are very much like mine.  I wonder what technique was used here, as I do not believe either a disc, or stylus was used.




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« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2015, 06:04:46 pm »

Dear George,

For the caledon I would guess a hard tipped "pen" to score and then roughed out with a wider file tip stick.

When I voted for rotary, it is for the bottom mark of your bottle (that you shared with me a while back and I felt it was rotary then).

The incision on the bottle for the poetry, to me feels different from the bottom, but like before I don't know enough to tell aside from guesses or feelings.

It looks like inscribed with a hard tip, trying to make the calligraphy shapes. But the words are not shaped correctly/porportionally and some of them are written oddly from traditional script. (like spring and air characters). It kinds of conflicts, as someone that can use a tipped scriber to write characters on a softer material like glass then he should be able to write correctly and in correct calligraphy shapes. That's why I am unsure about the inscription on the side of the bottle.

But, no matter what, it does looks very nice after you filled it with  coffee.  Grin

Kindly,
David
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« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2015, 06:18:19 pm »

George,

Does look much more impressive filled, as well as improving the incised image quality.  I really like this one. 

Charll
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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2015, 10:55:42 pm »



The incision on the bottle for the poetry, to me feels different from the bottom, but like before I don't know enough to tell aside from guesses or feelings.



I noticed the same David. It actually crossed my mind that someone may have added the Qianlong mark at a later date.  It lacks the nice flare at the end of the each characters strokes as seen within the poem.  Just don't know for sure...

Thank you again, very much for sharing your thoughts David..

Charll, thanks again..

To tell ya the truth, it was a pleasant surprise for this to turn out to be a most favored, most interesting, and fun researching bottle I have had to date..  Still left with more questions than answers, but it will all make sense sooner or later..

As a result of this bottle, am finding myself extremely drawn to similar incised bottles. I know you have Chris's book. Found myself quickly connected to Dr Edell's personal comments, and Chris's introduction at the beginning of the book. These really are a special little niche within snuff bottle collecting.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 11:24:49 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2015, 03:15:23 am »

Dear George,

        I and a number of others looked hard for reign-marked snuff bottles in the late 1970s, 1980s, to mid-1990s, and each found a small number we were sure were genuine.

        Then, 2 notable HK Chinese collectors with pots of money and almost zero knowledge, started demanding reign-marked bottles, and all of a sudden, they had collections full of them! To our (Western) collector arguments that till these two worthies demanded them, the examples were rare, they answered that Chinese did not want to sell to 'gweilo', or 'foreign white devils'.

        We, who knew that the Chinese Moslem snuff bottle dealers did NOT prefer their arrogant ignorance to our friendly and respectful and educated ( by the dealers!) attitude, knew that this was an example of 'there is a fool born every minute'. At a seminar on fakes at one convention, a certain dealer, with whom I usually DON'T agree, stated that we could use the two gentlemens' joint catalogue of so-called Imperial marked examples as a handbook on fakes!

     I think the bottle may well be late 18th or up to mid-19th C., but the mark is later.
Best,
Joey




The incision on the bottle for the poetry, to me feels different from the bottom, but like before I don't know enough to tell aside from guesses or feelings.



I noticed the same David. It actually crossed my mind that someone may have added the Qianlong mark at a later date.  It lacks the nice flare at the end of the each characters strokes as seen within the poem.  Just don't know for sure...

Thank you again, very much for sharing your thoughts David..

Charll, thanks again..

To tell ya the truth, it was a pleasant surprise for this to turn out to be a most favored, most interesting, and fun researching bottle I have had to date..  Still left with more questions than answers, but it will all make sense sooner or later..

As a result of this bottle, am finding myself extremely drawn to similar incised bottles. I know you have Chris's book. Found myself quickly connected to Dr Edell's personal comments, and Chris's introduction at the beginning of the book. These really are a special little niche within snuff bottle collecting.


« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 11:39:00 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2015, 04:28:49 am »

Thank you for that story Joey.. It makes perfect sense..

It is good to hear you believe the bottle and inscribed poem to late 18th to mid 19th. and the mark added later.  Have been hoping someone would date to this time frame, as it is where I want to date it as well.

Many thanks Joey  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2015, 04:44:46 am »


Dear George,
      As the baseball commentator said,"I calls it as I sees it!".  Wink
Best,
 Joey

Thank you for that story Joey.. It makes perfect sense..

It is good to hear you believe the bottle and inscribed poem to late 18th to mid 19th. and the mark added later.  Have been hoping someone would date to this time frame, as it is where I want to date it as well.

Many thanks Joey  Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2015, 06:00:22 am »

Hi George,

A wonderful and intriguing bottle! I have to agree with Joey, that later (even recently) added reign marks are not uncommon, especially ones incised onto glass and hardstone bottles. That would help explain any differences in the way the side and the base are incised.

I also prefer it filled with coffee, although I might have gone for powdered rather than granular!

Tom
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2015, 06:06:24 am »

Lovely bottle!
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« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2015, 11:47:47 am »

Dear Joey and George,
Quote
   I think the bottle may well be late 18th or up to mid-19th C., but the mark is later.

That would make perfect sense! When there is a demand, then there is always some dishonest people aiming to make a quick buck.

Then do you think this is of the period but for the tourists? Or for the general populace where the standards required is less?

Dear Tom,

I hope no one tries to sniff powdered coffee  Grin.

Kindly,
David
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« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2015, 03:57:25 pm »

And I was going to suggest Turkish coffee, with a hint of cardamon!   Grin
Re.recently incised marks, I meant specifically from 1990s onward, and to satisfy a couple of ignorant but demanding Hong Kong clients.
Best,
Joey


Hi George,

A wonderful and intriguing bottle! I have to agree with Joey, that later (even recently) added reign marks are not uncommon, especially ones incised onto glass and hardstone bottles. That would help explain any differences in the way the side and the base are incised.

I also prefer it filled with coffee, although I might have gone for powdered rather than granular!

Tom
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« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2015, 04:42:16 pm »

Hi George,

A wonderful bottle, the poem is really well done, altho I can't comment on the age of the incision. But overall, I love the bottle.

Congratulations !

Z
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« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2015, 07:23:57 pm »

Thanks Steven !
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