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Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB

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Author Topic: Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB  (Read 7569 times)
Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2011, 09:29:06 am »

Hi  George, Pat, Bill   et al

Sorry  that  I have  been   somewhat lax  these  past  2  weeks  on the   Forum.

I have been   dealing  with  some  deep  personal   stuff  ( impending   retirement,  very  aged  parents  ...  )

I  had  completely  forgotten  about  this   thread,  and   I  was   suprised  to  read  what  I   wrote  a  few  months  before

Sounds  like  a  "different"  me 

Have  I  "grown  up"  or  "grown   down"  in that   time  ?

But  I  do  have a  theory  about these  new  ( old)  names  that  don't   turn up  in my  DB  :

My theory   is  that  in roughly  every   decade   some / many    IP  artists    rise  to a  peak,  and   then  equally  fast    fade  away becuause   the   effort  of   doing  IP  is  so  intense, and    the   artist  must   immediately sell  off the  work,  with  little   or  no   photographic  record,  so  it  seems  the   whole   effort   was    totally   in vain

The  pics   I get   from    current   top   artists    are  so  amateur   that   it's  obvious  they  have  no  knowledge  how  to   record   their   works.

But , on the  other  hand,  I have   dozens  of   art book  by    current   canvas   artists  (  of  course,  all  mountain and  waterfall  themes)   which  record  perfectly  their   amazing    works 

Just    the  last  week  I  bought  2  amazing  huge  canvas  works  by  one   such     canvas  artist ,  one  to gift  to  our  new  Guangzhou  office   conference   room  and  the  other   for  myself ,   just because  it  is  so  beautiful.   

Price  per  pic  ?  HK$11,000  =   about  USD 1,500    . 

But  this  artist  is  already  quite   famous  and    even  has a book  published  of  his   works

In  due   time  ( please  remind  me  !)   I will   post a  few  scans  from his book   :   such  amazing  piantings  !

So   these  modern   IP   artists   quickly   rise  to their  peak   but then    equally   quickly  fade    away  because  no-one   appreciated  their   work  : after   all   -  how  many  SERIOUS  MODERN   IP   collectors    are  there   in the   world  ? 

Only a  handful,  so  it  seems 

That's  the   crying   shame  :    the  total  NON-recogntion  of  this   Modern  art form

I now  have  over  350  of  these  beaitiful  little  bottles ,  some  of  which   are   so beautiful  that  I want  cry over  them  because  of the  purpose  and  dedication that  went  into   creating them 

Much  more  purpose  and  dedication   than  most   canvas   artiists   who   can   turn out a  painting  a  day  based  on a   sterotyped   format 

Where   does  that  leave  me?

PLEASE  HELP  BECAUSE  I AM LOST




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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2011, 08:49:49 pm »

Peter

Stick to your (our) motto.  Collect out of love and dont care about what others think.  Unknown works from unknown artists that we love is still art, and just maybe it will take several generations for them to become popular.  So few artists become popular during their lifetime.  It is fair to say that this hobby is like fighting windmills.  Too many people are too private about their collecting style in this hobby, and I think this is one of the major reasons that these artists dont get the attention they deserve.  Their bottles just dissappear in a big hidden void and are mostly never seen again. In addition, as you indicate, the artists themselves also probably dont do enough personal PR, in order for them to get noticed on a wider scale. 

On the other hand though... it is fair to say that there were probably at least 50-100 IPB painters at the turn of the century, but even then (and to some extent still now) only Zhou Leyuan, Ma ShaoXuan, Ding Erzhong, Ye Zhongsan get the real respect they deserve.  Only recently have artists like Ma Shou Xian, Ma Guang Yu, Yong Shou Tian, Yan Yutian, Chen Zhongsan, Bi Rongjiu, Sun Xingwu, Le San, and some others started to become popular.   This is after over 100 years!  So I guess we can say that in reality not so much has changed.

If you look at some of the bottle pics that George posted from my 'missing' names list, you can see that some of these painters are indeed darn good, great even.  The sad part for them and for us, is that we may never find out who they really are/were.  And THAT is the fault of the collectors who dont share AND the fault of the artists who dont profile properly or disclose all the pen names they use.

So I go back to your (our) premise.  Collect out of love....
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2011, 11:55:21 pm »

Hi  Pat

You  are  100%    correct

( How   come   you   are  ALWAYS  so  correct  Huh  Your  IQ  must  be  in the  180  range   Cheesy  )

And  indeed, the  only reason  I  ever  collect   (AND  I  DO  MEAN  EVER  COLLECT)  is  just  for  the  pure  beauty  of  these   tiny   little   creations  of   art

But  please   promise    me  to  send  me  all the  pics  of  your  bottles   with   artist  names ,  provenance   etc   on  flash memory   so  I  can  eventually   load  it  all  in the  DB

Cheers   Peter
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« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2011, 12:59:31 am »



 The sad part for them and for us, is that we may never find out who they really are/were.  And THAT is the fault of the collectors who dont share AND the fault of the artists who dont profile properly or disclose all the pen names they use.



I believe that we may well have some success down the road.

Couple of things we know so far.. Just connecting some dots...

There are three most popular eBay sellers that offer these pen named bottles. 

The one and only IP bottle seller that takes the extra effort and time to include the artists name within the descriptions is dfc_greatlander from eBay. This is the seller I am getting the information/images being posted in the other board. Although the Knowing Eye and Cavalierstore will provide them if I send them a message.  Can not really keep sending message after message asking about who the artists are though. 

The later two ( KE, and Cav ) are connected to and purchase from the Antique And Art Company..

Also...

Someone along the line is keeping track.. !

What I mean by that is the eBay listings are in almost perfect order. Specific IP artists bottles are not posted randomly throughout their store listings. When you look down the list of bottles within their stores, the bottles are posted in order by artist. Maybe these are being delivered to them "in order" and pre-labeled with the artists name (pen name).. Or this seller is in direct contact with the artists. 

Some day here shortly, I am going to drop dfc a request asking them to help us with any direct information they must have about these pen names. Seems like if this information was included within in the pen name listings, that it would increase the value of their bottles.. In the end, seems like it would benefit both the seller and the artists.

I mentioned earlier that I can not find the link that pretty sure someone posted for the  Antique And Art Company. I could not find it via Google. I would like to have a peek at that site. So if someone knows the link.., please post it  Smiley

Ok.. I am done rambling..  Smiley   
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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2011, 02:53:40 am »

Hi  George

Great   input   from you, and    you   are   obviously   much better  informed  than  me, and  much more    diligent   in your research

The   GREAT  thing   about  the www  is  that people like  us   CAN  internetwork  so easily

(And  this   Forum, which  you  founded,  is  the  key)


But  please   add   David  Osborne  as  one   dealer  who  can be  trusted,  even  though  he    auctions   direct, not  via e-bay

I now  have   6  -   or  is  it     7  ?  -    superb bottles  ( and  all  at  bargain prices)    piling  up  at  his   home  for  hand-carry  by the  next  USA  guy  who  comes  to   China

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« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2011, 04:10:50 am »




But  please   add   David  Osborne  as  one   dealer  who  can be  trusted,  even  though  he    auctions   direct, not  via e-bay





I really did not mean to suggest that any of the stores mentioned within the forum should not be trusted. They have all sold with positive feedback within eBay for a long time. All sell beautiful bottles. As does David  Smiley The one and only glitch/disappointment we have with some, is that they do also offer the fake photo processed IP's.   

The only reason I plucked the few eBay sellers out to talk about was just for the purpose of helping us connect the dots between artist/artists signatures. I hope we will find some of these sellers are actually also collectors themselves. Perhaps being collectors themselves, we may find them eager to help connect the dots between pen names, and the true artists names. 

David does sell some stunning bottles at great prices through his private auctions !  Smiley   
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« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2011, 09:43:06 pm »

George

I am on David's list but have not been in a postion to buy (from him or elsewhere) lately due to some serious tax issues and priorities.  Has my list of 'unknowns' ever been presented to David to see if he knows some of them?  Or at least their names?  Thanks

Patriek
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« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2011, 10:22:29 pm »

Peter

After our phone call yesterday, THIS is one of your possible GREAT projects after retirement... to create not only a database, but a online showcase for these incredible artists, especially the ones in 'coming', a portal of sorts.  This would serve multiple purposes:

1) create historical record of achievements for each artist, and just as importantly, how hey got their inspiration (original, copy from/off, loosely inspired by etc...)
2) track record of at least where the items went (creates provenance) and what they sold for at creation (very important..)
3) track pen names and when/why/where they were used and for what reason
4) cut out the sharks and middlemen
5) raise awareness and PR...
6) raise the true value of these miniature pieces of art

This could be combined with Bill's site, or seperate, and I could certainly contribute my bottles then much faster, something which I dont have the time for at present.  You could come photograph them and BB could help with the interpretation and translation (and spend time in paradise doing it;-)

Just another crazy idea...

P
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« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2011, 04:24:28 pm »

China .... 1 billion people .... 4 billion names. I once thought I would try to write down every name I found associated with an IPB. I soon gave that up with a more realistic goal of trying to document every painter we can find, not every name we can find. Somewhere in this forum or in e-mail I think Peter mentioned a "middle man" who received bottles from various painters and he put names on them. Is my memory correct Peter??

Bill
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« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2011, 08:14:59 pm »

Wooah.. that is certainly a new twist, and a disturbing one.  I don't recall having read that.  My purpose at least is to try and identify the person who painted the bottles I have, so since pen names and artists were connected (until this latest wrench into the equation), that seemed, yes, very difficult but not necessarily absolutely impossible.  Arggghhhh....
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« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2011, 09:11:17 pm »

Hi Pat, Bill, All

PAT  :  You  set   me    6  objectives:

1) create historical record of achievements for each artist, and just as importantly, how hey got their inspiration (original, copy from/off, loosely inspired by etc...)
2) track record of at least where the items went (creates provenance) and what they sold for at creation (very important..)
3) track pen names and when/why/where they were used and for what reason


I  have  already  tried  to achieve 1)  by  copying    all the  biographical    info  I could  find  into  the  DB   eg   from  New  Look,  CIPMA,  notes  I   made  myself,  info  from  Bill, David  Osborne. Look  into the   DB  on  almost  any  famous  artist and  you  will see the  text    as well as pics.   Beyond  that, unless I  inteview every  artist and  get his story, I   think that's an  impossibly high bar

I reckon 2) is  impossible, unless a  collector  (  eg Yeo,   Richard)  or   group  of collectors  (  eg  Nanyang  Group)  have  published a book of their  collections. One of the  great  mysteries  for me  is  where most  of the bottles  by well-know  artists  have ended  up,  but occasionally I stumble  on   something  new, eg   I recently got  in  contact  with a  USA collector  via  Davod  Osborne   who  says  she  has  50   x  Suo Zhenhai

Re  3) :  I can   cross-relate  pen names   with  real names, and indeed  I have  already done   this  in the   DB ( please  DO read the  introductory  word.doc  ! )   , but  as  to     why they  were  used  would  be very hard to  trace  except  for  the  handful  of   VM  arrtists   whom I have  collected and  know  personally  ( eg Hu Xiaoran  aka  Xiao Quan )


4) cut out the sharks and middlemen
5) raise awareness and PR...
6) raise the true value of these miniature pieces of art


I  don't  see that  doing  this  would     achieve   4) . Where   there is food  there  will always  be  sharks and  middlemen

But I  do see that   doing this  would  assist to achieve   5) and   6) , and  this  is  precisely why I     created the   DB ( and I think also  why  Bill  created  his website).  So if a collector  sees  a nice bottle    for sale  by  an  artist  who  he/ she has never  heard  of  eg  Yun Chuan  whom  we were   discussing yesterday , the  collector  can  quickly  check to see what  is already  known  about the  artist,   previous works  etc  and decide  if the  bottle  "looks"  genuine  and  worth  collecting.

IMHO,    there  have been  so many    minor  artists  that   have    risen  and fallen    within  a  very short  space of time   that   their   works   will  never be  "valuable"  collectors'  items, although  one  may buy    them   just because   they are attractive.  (  If  you  read   to the  very end of  New Look   you   will see that  J.H. Leung  mentions   several  upcoming artists  at the end  of  his  collecting  period  in the  late   1980's  who have since  completely vanished  from the scene)
But  other  artists   are  well  worth  collecting   for  "intrinsic / historic "   value   as well as   for  aesthetic  value

I created the   DB  basically to  help   up-coming  collectors  navigate  through the   IPB   jungle . ( And  BTW - I   still  find it's  easier to   have a  DB  in toto  in one's  lap top  so one check  immediately while  in the  shop  instead  of   checking  on line  : that  is until   download  speeds  on roaming   go much  faster)

Hope that  answers  all your  points  !     Smiley

_____________________________________

There  are  about   300  Chinese   family names,  but   almost  every  Chinese person   then  has   two   given  names , and   given that  there  are  probably  about   300    words   which   could  be  used   as   suitable   given name   such  as"fortunate"  or " strong"  or "beautiful"   that  makes    300 x 300 x 300  =   9  Billion possible   combinations  ( some  Chinese  names    use the  same  2  given  names  eg  Guo Ping Ping )

Pen  names  usually seem to have  only  2 words,   and - if  I am not mistaken -  many  of  the   first names , which   would be the   family name  in a   REAL  name,   are  not   one of the   300 +   official   family names  ( eg  I am almost   certain that  "Yi"   meaning "one " is not a   Chinese  family  name  unless  it's  someone  from one  of the  minority  races)  

So, yes, there  is a real   jungle  of  names.  But  as we  gradually  link up  pen names  with   real  names  my guess  is that  we  will come   down  to  about  200  - 300  artists  "of  note"  (among  who  are  about   100 "greats")   whose   work and  reputation  will  last, and   another  700 - 800   of  "short-lived flowers"  

Cheers   Peter

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« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2011, 09:33:47 pm »

Trust me .. I have i read all your stuff several times.  In the end, I think your conclusion hits it right on.  I think you are right about the 300 guessed 'numbers' of good to great artists (who knows how many pen names that is, but at least 600, and probably aroiund 1000-1200, if we average 3-4 pen names per artist). If we discount the 'factory' and 'student' grade bottles selling from lets say to $10-$50, there would just not be enough economic livelihood for the artists to make a reasonable living if there were more of them.  If you take an average annual output of say 50 good (that is probably on the high side) bottles per person x 300 artists, that makes 15,000 good bottles per year that find their way into the unknown abyss. Given the rising collector scene in China, that is not improbable as it is after all a truly unique and chinese art, and the wealthy chinese have certainly rediscovered it.

Maybe those of us collecting today outside China can count ourselves among the blessed.  I have the uncomfortable feeling this art will either not survive (worst case) or become a Cninese playground altogether (best case).   

 
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« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2011, 10:24:13 pm »

Hi  Pat,

Seems  we  have   some  concensus  on   numbers  of  artists

I reckon that, although   a  good   VM   artist   in  his  mid -late   30's  can paint a  good  bottle  in one week working non-stop,   his  actual  productivity is  only 2  bottles/ month  because  of  planning a  bottle,  family  matters  etc.    If  he  can get  RMB 4 - 5K   net  per bottle, which  I think is the  going  rate  that  makes  RMB8-10K / month ( I assume  tax free)  which  is a pretty   good salary   in Hengshui. That  translates to   at least  double that  in  terms  of   salary vs  cost of living in the  big cities  ( maybe  almost treble before  tax) , which  puts  him  on a par   with  our   top sales  staff  in China   who bring in  USD 2 - 4 Million / month  sales

RMB4-5K  net/ bottle  means   final sale  price  in  the  USD1K range  via a   dealer

All this  is at  current  prices , of course.   It seems  a few  years  ago   the   artist's   expectation  per  "good" bottle  was  much lower

Re  collecting  :  I think you  have a moot  point .   I guess  100  years   ago  IPBs   were   exclusively the playground  of  Chinese  collectors. But  inevitably    eventually they  become  international collectors'  items  ( even  so, many of the "great"    Early and Middle   school  collections  are  in the  hands of  Chinese  collectors )

Now  for the   Modern  school  :   again  it's the  Chinese  collectors  who   have lead the   field  :  J.H. Leung,   the   S'Pore  Nanyang  group, and  other  collectors  in Spore like  Yeo,  Richard  etc  . And   probably a  handful of   discrete , rich  Chinese   collectors    who have  not  published their    collections  yet.   Even  you  and  I  have   strong  Chinese  connections !  It  seems   Bill  is the   "exception that proves the   rule" ( if I may   say that  in the   nicest possible  way   Smiley   )

The   VM school  may  turn  out to   have a  wider  audience   worldwide because  of  dealers  like  Jill.  But  - as I mentioned  before  -  I  recently heard that   80% of  all  good  VM bottles   are now   sold  within China

So where   does  that  leave   the   future  of  this  art-form  ?    BIG  QUESTION !

Cheers   Peter

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« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2011, 10:55:10 pm »

Only one major difference.   You are right that only the rich or influenced could afford the bottles between say 1880 and 1912.  But then you forget the loss of fortune and money due to turbulent and poor times between 1912 and 1949 due to internal strife, revolution, war lords, republic, civil war, then the rebuilding, the korean war, the cultural revolution which caused all these artifacts to be sold, leave china or worse, just dissappear and destroyed.  I dont think these items from the modern period will undergo these types of influences to leave China again.  But of course... who knows, but seems unlikely.

With all the rest I agree...
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« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2011, 02:31:56 am »

I have included the Chinese characters for those I am sure of.  The rest is pending.  There are 67 names so far.  More to follow. 

Excellent !
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« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2011, 04:36:39 am »

Hi Pat

This  is  really  fantastic.  Many thanks

 Smiley   Smiley   Smiley  Smiley   Smiley

I will  get to  work in the next   few  days  to add all these  names  into the  DB   with a  just a  simple  reference  to  you   in the  source   coding (I  think that "D" is  still   free  : I  booked "P"  for  myself )

Then,  when   you  eventually send me the  pics  of  your  bottles,    I will  mount  them  into  the  DB

I intend to  issue  the  DB  every  year    free of  charge   to seriously  interested  parties. These  days  memory  sticks  are  so  cheap  that  it's  nonesense to  talk  of   USB  stick costs  - in fact  postage  is  probably the  biggest    cost

For the   definition  of  "seriously"  : that  means  anyone  out there  on the   Forum  who is  corresponding  with me  personally   and  seriously   on a  regular basis  ( regardless  of  size  of  collection )    and/ or    who   has     sent  me  a  complete      data   file  of  his/her  collection  to  up-load into the  DB  

Just   two   comments, Pat  :


1. Nearly all the    names  are  two  characters,  which  means  almost  certainly    art  names.

    So they may be   big time  artists   using   temporary   art names   during  their  infancy  ( just  like  Zhang Limin
    aka  Spiderman - it's  amazing how  much I have  learned  from following  this  one  particular  up-coming   artist)

    Or  they  may be  "flash  in a  pan"   artists :  here  today / gone  tomorrow  and  thus  untraceable

2.  In  my  DB I never   (  consciously)  gave  any preference   to my preferred   theme  of    Chinese  landscapes.   I just  downloaded  everything  I could  regardless  of  theme.  And I certainly   opened a   data  file  for  every  artist name  I ever  came  across.  So  I  do hope  there's  very little bias in   that aspect

Cheers  Peter



    
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Joey
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« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2012, 07:33:09 am »

I have some Qiu Shi bottles in my collection. I know nothing about him. I saw a mention in this thread. Does anyone know any info about him, OTHER than that he's stopped working?
Thanks for all info, Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2012, 07:57:59 am »

Hi  Joey

Check the   DB

Qiu Shi  =  Liu  Xinkai

Cheers

Peter
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« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2012, 08:05:51 am »

Thank you Peter. Got it!
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2013, 02:48:55 am »

Peter,

Some time back, I enquired of you if you knew of this VMIP artist by the name of Zhi Li
( see my bottles attached ), in Chinese 志立 and . I just found out his name is Zhang
Zhi Li from Heibei , born 1967. He was a student of Li Guang Li ( 李广立 )and
Xu Peng Qi ( 许鹏启 ) when he started IP career.

I find it interesting that he signed one side with 志立 and the other with 智力. I found his biodata in the brochure " Modern Chinese
Snuff Bottles - from Hebei Province ".

Regards,
Inn Bok

Inn Bok


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