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Names of unidentified IPB painters NOT yet found in Peter's DB

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« on: June 01, 2011, 11:15:04 pm »

All

Last night found a misplaced list of painters/artists that I either have bottles of, considered buying, or was interested to see more items of.  In either case, the painters were good enough for me to like the bottles or peeked my interest for more. I have cross-referenced all on my list to Peter's DB and these are the missing names/aliases.  I dont have the correct Chinese characters for them as these were translated in Pinyin for me.

Any information obviously would be helpful in many ways!  Thanks a lot!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 11:53:09 am by Inside Painted Collector » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2011, 01:04:38 am »

I recognize many of these names..

This first seller actually includes many of these artists names within the descriptions of her bottles. The other two below do not include the artists name within the description.

dfc_greatdealer is a seller I mentioned a while back.. As she sells some of the fake bottles.. Actually, all three of these sellers offer the fake bottles. She ( dfc_greatdealer ) is the one I mentioned having a shop in Shanghai. Never would tell me where the shop is at though.. 

Also am positive that I remember many of the names on your list coming back to me when asking 2002emily who the artists are.

Same with the-knowing-eye. I recognize many of these names being sent to me as artists of bottles I inquired about.

I have always found it interesting that both of these last two sellers describe their painted bottles exactly the same.. Not "inside painted", or even "reverse painted", but both describe them as "inside-drawing." It always made me think that these two ebay stores are some how connected.

I have bought bottles in the past from all three of these sellers. It has been a few years ago, but found that bottles priced in the 100.00 range were pretty darn nice, and always was pleased when they arrived. 

What I am not absolutely sure of, but think I recall, is some of these names may also have been student ( at the time ) artists from the Xisan acadamy. I use to purchase them from a Canadian fellow who traveled to China and would meet with Xisan artists. Purchased directly from them for resale to members of what was back then called the Snuff Bottle Club.

 
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2011, 01:21:20 am »

Wow George.  This is amazing.  These names on my list I refer to have been compiled from real dealers/shops throughout China over the last 4-5 years (Shanghai, Shenzhen, Hangzhou, Beijing, Tianjin, Qingdao, Harbin, Dalian), not from these internet folks!!  We need to somehow find out if indeed they are/were students and still active, or aliases for other painters, etc.  Do you still have some of the contacts?   And with the 'Snuff Bottle Club'?  Sorry for the many questions, but this is pretty exciting.  What is NOT so exciting after going through the links you sent, is that they have fake bottles for sale, so this makes me definetely not want to pursue them, but makes me more interested about the names now.
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2011, 01:28:28 am »

Forgot to mention that in many cases the reason why I did not buy the bottles from these folks is that I had already enough birds/fairies/ladies/mythical scenes and started to venture into the landscapes and portraits which are by definition much harder to paint, take longer, and therefore not so plentiful, as well as more expensive as a result.  BUT if I did write down the name it meant I liked the painting styles or colors, even if I did not like the subject matter (or prices).  I just never found the list back until yesterday.  This is an amazing forum .. love it .. even though it seems we are getting fewer to communicate here lately!
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2011, 02:16:07 am »

even though it seems we are getting fewer to communicate here lately!

This is driving me crazy as well... !

I searched high and low online looking for the Canadian fellow.. Did find a site called The Snuff Bottle Club, but it is not the same as these are students of Li Shouxun. I did email them when I began collecting again a few short months ago, but never heard back from them. Tried a few times too. I can only assume that the Canadian let his site ( snuff bottle club ) domain name lapse and these guys snagged it up ?? No way for me to know..

I stopped considering purchasing from all three of these sellers for just that reason in regards to each offering the fake bottles. I know for a fact all three know they are fake. As I have talked with each. Yet they will not disclose that they are photo faked bottles within the descriptions. Yet I still browse their bottles and it is the bottles painted by some of the artists on your list that always get my attention.

My guess is that yes.., these students are still active. I think this because these sellers are always selling bottles painted by these same ( student ? ) atrists. Seems like they would have to have a continious source in order to be selling them all the time.



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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2011, 03:24:19 am »

Yes that is my hunch too.   I also noticed though that many of the bottles are dated from 2005-2008, not so many newer dates.  They may be using up old stock or.... Huh

In any case, they for sure can not afford much longer to buy from artists and sell at these prices, if Peter's info is right (which I am sure it is) as well as my info on the base price of glass and manmade crystal.  It is very interesting though that NONE of the artists in Peter's database are on sale with these dealers, while ALL of the names above are missing. 

I agree with your decision to stop buying from people that continue to offer this crap, even if they do have some much nicer bottles listed.  And to buy them sight unseen would not be something I would do anyway.  This is why i stay away from the internet.  I do trade other stuff I find with a guy in Belgium who buys that way, when I am in Europe for work, but this way I can touch, see and feel the bottles.  BUT I would love to be able to trace the artist's names I have listed here earlier.  Peter, can your contacts help?. 

For all of your info, these are the ones I am sure that I have already in my collection, but without any info on them.

Shi Qing (in Peter's DB but no info, only listed in Singapore IPB books), Li Shan, Tian Yuan, Hui Chun, Bao Yin, Yu Zheng, Jiu Zhou, Han Lin, Jiu Yie, Yun Qing, Qing Shan, He Bao, Jian Guo, Hong Shu.  These 15 or so names I find personally very good and appealing  (some for animals, landscapes, portraits, people, etc..)

Other interesting thing is that these names are not in the dfc_greatdealer listings, or anywhere on ebay, or elsewhere on the net, as far as I can tell, so you could be right that about 25 or so artist names keep popping up on the internet, based on the links you provided (I just went through all their listings, some as low as $30 and as high as $200 lets say.  Now, in fairness to the artists and the sellers, some of these are pretty darn nice, but I need to see, hold, feel and touch.  THAT is my problem!!

Where is our great detective today?  Grin

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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2011, 03:58:47 am »

Hi George

Let me guess, the Canadian dealer that you are referring, is it Mr David Osborne by any chance?

Pat, I am still trying to find out more details about Qiu Shi that you have emailed about. Will keep you posted once I have any information.

Regards.


Richard

Quote

This is driving me crazy as well... !

I searched high and low online looking for the Canadian fellow.. Did find a site called "The Snuff Bottle Club" , but it is not the same as these are students of Li Shouxun. I did email them when I began collecting again a few short months ago, but never heard back from them. Tried a few times too. I can only assume that the Canadian let his site ( snuff bottle club ) domain name lapse and these guys snagged it up ?? No way for me to know..

I stopped considering purchasing from all three of these sellers for just that reason in regards to each offering the fake bottles. I know for a fact all three know they are fake. As I have talked with each. Yet they will not disclose that they are photo faked bottles within the descriptions. Yet I still browse their bottles and it is the bottles painted by some of the artists on your list that always get my attention.

My guess is that yes.., these students are still active. I think this because these sellers are always selling bottles painted by these same ( student ? ) atrists. Seems like they would have to have a continious source in order to be selling them all the time.




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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2011, 05:52:22 am »

George

Found your link to the Snuff Bottle Club:

http://www.snuffbottleclub.com/

Note the reference to Photo Imprinted bottles! I pasted a pic here to show.

Richard

Thanks for trying to find out more about Qiu Shi and Shi Qing!! 


* PI reference ....jpg (78.29 KB, 745x254 - viewed 215 times.)
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2011, 07:35:32 am »

Yes Richard that is him ! and yes to you as well Pat.. That site is David's site.. !

I am going to have to send an email, and ask what happened or if there still is an actual club with members that he sells to. I did hang on to one single bottle from him. My girlfriend took a liking to it. So never did sell it off with the others.

Pat,

The process described there with the use of the chemical called Silver Dioxide sounds along the exact same lines as the different liquid light products.. From what I have read, only work for leaving the black print/outline that lets pretty much anyone slap a little paint between the lines.

Off to drop David an email...  Smiley 





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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2011, 08:29:01 am »

Hi Guys

Sorry , been busy   trying to  earn a  living these  past  3 days   in BJ 

Wow...lots  of new   names  ! 

I will send to Li Shouxun to ask if he knows   any of them 

Also need the   Chinese   characters

To be  sure,  any student  of   LXS, past  or present, is    10%   kocher 

Cheers  Peter   aka  the  great  detective  ( back in HK  )
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2011, 08:33:54 am »

Hi  again

BTW  :  Shi Qing  is ( was)   definitely for real,  and   confirmed   has stopped  painting

His  name  came up  in conversation  with  one of the  Singpaore   collectors  last weekend  in BJ

Cheers  Peter
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2011, 01:24:05 pm »

David emailed back. He is still offering bottles via a weekly mailing list. So am looking forward to seeing some of what he has.

He mentioned right off about how difficult it is these days to find good prices.

 
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2011, 08:34:44 pm »

Hi  George

Re the  price  issue, I also found the same  in BJ    this  week.  I already  posted  an example of a  bottle    I saw  in a  BJ specialist bottle  shop,  still  unsold  after   2  years,   now marked  up  to more than 2  x the    5.2009 price 

There was  another  more  recently-painted  bottle  in the  shop  by a  relatively   minor  arrtist  (  Yu Nong  =  Hou Yingzi) which I  quite  liked  priced  at   marked  price RMB10,000 =  USD1,500 .  Normally  that  shop  would  give me  a  70%  discount  from marked  price  =     RMM3,000,   but   even  when I offered  RMB4,000   the  owner  refused   saying that  was  his  buying price  so there's no way  he could  sell at  RMB4,000

So I passed on that  one    Sad

Cheers  Peter  ( back in HK  )
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2011, 12:41:27 pm »

Hi  again

BTW  :  Shi Qing  is ( was)   definitely for real,  and   confirmed   has stopped  painting

His  name  came up  in conversation  with  one of the  Singpaore   collectors  last weekend  in BJ

Cheers  Peter

David recognized a couple on the list but commented how this can be complicated as most good artists have two totally different names.

As an example, Shi Qing is the artist name of Zhang Hai Shen. I included the link to a Zhang Hai Shen off Bills site thinking it may be this artist ??

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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2011, 05:41:40 pm »

Hi George,

When I  wrote   Shi  Qing    that  was a  mistake.  I meant to write  Qiu Shi , whom the  S'Pore    guys mentioned  last weekend in BJ  because  he  has now  definitely   stopped  painting

But  in fact  both these  artists    were  collected  by the  Singapore  Nanyang  Group because  -  I believe  - they  were   senior  students  of  Wang Guanyu ,  who   often  went to  S'Pore   and    who   was  most ardently  collected  by the  Nanyang  Group  ( you  can see that from their book)

The first time  I ever went to Hengshui,  Wang Guanyu sold me  a bottle  each by  Shi Qing and   Qiu Shi  and  very reasonable  prices  ( about  USD 200 each)  which  seemed  to  have been gathering dust on his  shelves. Both were  of course landscapes.

I have  since  been  able  to  confirm  that  Qiu Shi  =  Liu Xingkai 

But  I  do not know  the  real  name of Shi Qing and  I myself  have  no evidence that he  is  Zhang  Haishen  ( although that's not to say  he  is  not   ZHS )  .  If  you  have some     evidence  or  testimony  please  do   send  to me.  I  can't  find  anything  on Bill's  site  for  ZHS  except a  copy of   his page in CIPMA .

The  use of  pen names  seems to be  very common, and some  artists   have several pen  names .  Maybe  they   adopt   different  pen names  at  different  phases  of their    creative  life  .  According to my research  , even Zhang Guanqing,  current  master  of  the   Lu  Schooln in  Shangdong (  Zibo)  has   two  pen names

Cheers  Peter
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« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2011, 11:36:44 pm »

Hi  again George

Seems   we  have  got  3  important    strings  entagled  here

1.  Names  of  artists  not  in   my  DB

     On  this  subject  I'm  pretty  sure  they  are  mostly  if  not  all  pen names.    Pen names  are typically  2  characters
     whereas   real Chinese  names  are   usually  ( bit  not always)  3  characters  :
     Family name (   always  1st)  + 2    ( or sometimes  1   or  - very rarely :3   given  names ) .

     There  are  only  about   300   Chinese   family names

     Many  of the  names  in   Pat's  list  are   Xiao  ( =  little),  Yu,  and  Mu  , which  are not  Chinese  family  names
     to the  best of  my  knowledge,  and  if  you  look in my  DB  you    will     that  all the   Xiao, Yu and  Mu -named
     artists  are   pen-names or   suspected  pen-names

     I sent Pat's  list of names  to  Li Shouxun  in Hengshui, but  he  says he  has never  heard  of them  ( though  without
     the  excact  Chinese  characters  it  probably  hard  for him to  identify  them )

2.   Dealers, websites  etc   which  sell   crap  and even fake  bottles, of  which  there's a couple  of  names  below  I note


3.    Legit   dealers,    eg  David  Osborne's  Snuff Bottle  Club   , which   is a  "pure  gold"   find

I  wonder  if  you  can separate  these  strings   under   3  new  headings   so we can follow  each  string separately  ?

Cheers  Peter

PS  : I am a  firm  believer  in networking  and  Forums, whatever  our   personal differences  and tastes.  Hope  we  got  through  our  first  birth pains   due  to my gaff   re   asking for a  deletion , for which apologies to  all . But often  after   pain comes  pleasure, and  it  seems   David's   website  may eventually  lead  us  to a lot more contacts  to  serious  IPB collectors   world-wide. 


   
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2011, 12:33:46 am »



I  wonder  if  you  can separate  these  strings   under   3  new  headings   so we can follow  each  string separately  ?

Cheers  Peter

PS  : I am a  firm  believer  in networking  and  Forums, whatever  our   personal differences  and tastes.  Hope  we  got  through  our  first  birth pains   due  to my gaff   re   asking for a  deletion , for which apologies to  all . But often  after   pain comes  pleasure, and  it  seems   David's   website  may eventually  lead  us  to a lot more contacts  to  serious  IPB collectors   world-wide. 


   

I hesitate to start a thread/topic that is for the purpose of labeling specific sellers as having poor bottles.  I think we would be crossing a line and could find such a topic/thread back fireing on our forum here. Quite honesly as odd as it may first seem... Even those sellers offering poor or even fake bottles can join up here.  Open forum  Wink

I have mentioned sellers that are selling fake bottles.. They know it, and they are sure welcome to join up, discuss, and share with us..   

In regards to starting a thread/topic for sellers we each like ?  I feel like members here ( especially since we are so few ! ) are being provided with good information as to good reputable sellers via general discussions between us. I especially would rather not promote just any seller..  I tend to believe the forum should support every way we can, "it's own members" that actually show support for, and are actively participating within the forum. I sure do not mind and actually greatly appreciate it when someone mentions a reputable seller, but that does not deserve that seller a promotional spot within the forum.. Not unless they are actively participating here.

If you notice, I do promote Bill's site.. Happily so, as he has contributed a great deal here....

I will get a new thread started for Names Of Artists not in your DB for sure if you like ..  Smiley  I know this thread has a few off topic replies, but maybe it is still ok as far as discussing the artists not on the DB ??  Just say the word, and I can start a brand new thread, or you can do the same and copy what you like from this one to the new one..

Odds are we will still see a few replies a bit off topic as we are seeing here... Sometimes it just sorta works out that way..

Not to worry even in the slightest about the asking of deletion.. No apologies necessary. 

Like you I am, and hope others here are as eager to enjoy future pleasures !   

As always, I am open to, and grateful for replies on my thoughts. Especially as we continue through the pains and pleasures of our birth  Cheesy
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2011, 05:38:13 am »

Hi  George

As  ever,  your  replies   show    a lot  of  wisdom,  which  I, even at  62  going  on  63 ,  still  seem to lack    wisdom  in matters  where  I am   hopelessly  passionate  [ hope I am not  so  lacking wisdom  in my  job ......  but  it  seems  not  so  since  I have  been  employed  by the same  company for  over  25  years     Wink  ]

I   take  your  point  absolutely  re    dealers and agree 100% .  It's  wrong to  blacklist.

Just need to  separate the  thread  re other  artists  not  in my  DB as a new  thread

BTW:   a   small  handful  of  new    artist  names have  surfaced   via  Jill  (  Guo  Jie) 's    2  x   2010   catalogues , and   Jill only   deals  for  bona  fide   good  artists .    I have  yet to  update my  DB  to include these .

Heck ...  I have  a LOT  of  work to  do as soon  as  I retire   ! 

Cheers   Peter


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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2011, 09:56:00 am »

Peter

As I indicated in personal email to you, the Chinese characters associated with this list, which I initially started the thread with is long gone and lost.  The best I can do is at least at some point take decent pics of the following artist's bottles, which I am sure I have, the other names may pop up as I uncover items, but these stand out in my mind, and have entries in my 'bought items' list:

Shi Qing (but this one we have from Singapore group), Li Shan, Tian Yuan, Hui Chun, Bao Yin, Yu Zheng, Jiu Zhou, Han Lin, Jiu Yie, Yun Qing, Qing Shan, He Bao, Jian Guo, Hong Shu, Mu Ke.

The above artists would have to have been AT LEAST very decent students or more to peak my interest enough to buy their bottles, OR they are real known artists in your DB operating under new and unknown aliases (likely), OR perhaps just unknown still (possible).

Best Regards!




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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2011, 10:10:44 pm »

The best I can do is at least at some point take decent pics of the following artist's bottles


I am really getting curious to see if we can possibly connect these pen names to known student artists true names.

Going to start keeping an eye out for the pen names on the list, and post pics as they come up.

I totally agree that the artwork shown on these bottles are superior to a beginning student. With a little luck maybe we can connect the dots by associating/recognizing the different styles of these to bottles of similar style signed with a true name.

As Pat said.. " We need to somehow find out if indeed they are/were students and still active, or aliases for other painters, etc."

I have a few to start off with. Each pen name will have it's own thread so additional examples can be added.
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