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Inscribed Blue & White Bottle / Slip Casting / Molds / Casting

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Author Topic: Inscribed Blue & White Bottle / Slip Casting / Molds / Casting  (Read 1195 times)
Haa
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« on: March 28, 2015, 03:21:17 pm »

I thought I post a picture of this blue and white snuff bottle that I bought recently. I am seeking help on the inscription and wonder whether it helps to verify the date of manufacture.  I would think the bottle dates to around 1860.

Any thoughts or ideas?


* B&W1.jpg (20.53 KB, 458x611 - viewed 48 times.)

* B&W2.jpg (20.65 KB, 458x611 - viewed 59 times.)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 09:07:27 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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George
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« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2015, 05:40:35 pm »

Beautiful bottle !

Can you post a pic of the base ?
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2015, 08:35:30 pm »

Henric,

Nice bottle and thanks for sharing it.  It appears your dating may about right, but as George requested a photo of the base and top without the stopper may help.  Also, take a flashlight and shine it into the interior of the bottle.  Is there remnants of a mid seam?  If so the bottle was molded as two halves and glued together with clay slip.  This characteristic of molded halves was also prevalent in the 2nd half of the 19th century on bottles with broad, flat faces and more narrowed sides.

Charll   
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Tom B.
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2015, 11:19:23 am »

Dear Charl,

I beg to differ with you about how porcelain snuff bottles were made.  The method of mold two halves and luting them together was standard practice for all non-round porcelain snuff bottles since the 1780's when they were porcelain Snuff Bottles were first made.  The following is an image of a 6.3 cm high Jiaqing Mark & Period SB sold for  $10,625 in September 2012 by Christies NY.

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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2015, 11:20:43 am »

and here is an image of the base showing the mold line

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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2015, 11:37:55 am »

I have many more examples including Qianlong M&P bottles that sold for very high prices. 

If something isn't round, there is no other way besides molding for a porcelain potter to make it.  That includes the typical Daoguang rounded snuff bottles.

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Tom B.

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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2015, 11:39:15 am »

more images

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Tom B.

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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2015, 12:06:15 pm »

Quote
I beg to differ with you about how porcelain snuff bottles were made.  The method of mold two halves and luting them together was standard practice for all non-round porcelain snuff bottles since the 1780's when they were porcelain Snuff Bottles were first made.

Tom, you are absolutely right and I was just trying to get to whether the bottle had a visible mid seam.  I've just noticed that with molded porcelain bottles I've observed that there just seems to be a preponderance of interior evidence or observable remnants of mid seams on late 19th century bottles.  Maybe the potters during these later periods went to less effort fill, swab, and smooth the interior seams.  It has just been an observation of mine and not sure if it holds any water yet in regard to dating, but there does appear to be a correlation with bottles in my collection.  My speculation would be on these later bottles which were likely made for export is that the craftsman/potters saw no need to go to the extra effort to fill and smooth the interior of the bottles to eliminate the obvious mid seam.  To me some of these bottles are problematic in that snuff would collect in the mid seam crevices and the bottle would be more difficult to clean.      

Charll      
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2015, 12:12:57 pm »

Dear Charl,

I agree that starting in the Daoguang period the potters became less likely to take the care that their predecessors did.

Of course the snuff bottle posted by Henric was not made for the export trade, with an inscription as part of the decoration it was most likely made for a literati scholar.

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Tom B.
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2015, 01:24:00 pm »

Quote
If something isn't round, there is no other way besides molding for a porcelain potter to make it.

Tom,

As I'm sure you are fully aware, and I'm only stating this to make some of our more novice collectors aware, there are at least two processes in creating molded porcelains.  They are:

1) Creating two separate halves (and I presume quarters were likely done as well) in molds and seaming them together with slip (like those plastic models I did as a kid). Often the body pieces would be formed in open face molds like trays.  Creating the body halves can either be done with with clay sheets (like a pie crust) pressed into the mold or with liquid clay slip as describe below.  In this process there are both an interior and exterior seams which needs to be cleaned and blended after the body is pieced together;

and

2) Pouring liquid slip into an enclosed two or even a multi-piece mold.  The clay slip becomes firm along the contact edge of the mold as moisture is draw off, while the interior slip remains in liquid form.  After a period of time the liquid slip is poured out (like pouring water out of a vase) leaving a clay shell in the mold (like a hollow chocolate Easter Bunny) which is allowed to dry.  The thickness of the porcelain body is regulated by how long the slip is left in contact with the mold.  Once the clay shell is firm enough the mold is pulled apart and the piece is left out to further dry before firing.  In this latter process there are no interior seams only exterior seams that need grooming. 

Regards,

Charll
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2015, 03:37:19 pm »

Dear Charl,

If we are to clarify Chinese porcelain manufacturing techniques, then we should mention that slip casting is a relatively modern method in China. According to Jan-Erik of Gotheborg.com, there is evidence that slip casting was not used in China before circa 1940 +/- 10 years.

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Tom B.
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2015, 05:40:05 pm »


Tom,

Thanks for the follow-up comment and possible limitation on the period of slip casting.  However, I do recall reading an article sometime back on the methods of Chinese porcelain manufacturing and distinctly recall an illustration on open mold slip casting, do not recall any reference to dating however.  Will have to see if I can relocate the article and illustration.

Thanks again for the follow-up,

Charll
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2015, 06:09:23 pm »

Dear Charl,

That would be very helpful if we can see an illustration showing such molds. If it is possible to date the image, it could help with a no-later-than date of introduction of their use in China. 

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Tom B.
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Tom B.

SteveC
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2015, 01:35:33 pm »

The inscription says "made for you by your "stupid" friend Mr. Tang Da Wu",  this bottle was a gift from Mr. Tang for his friend, Tang calls himself stupid to be polite.
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