" VM " = Very Modern Inside Painted Bottles

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  All on this   Forum

I  would  like  to  propose a  new  terminology:  " VM"  =  VERY   MODERN     Inside  Painted  Bottles (  IPB)

Thus  " VM -IPB  "   

And  I  propose  This   refers  to  any bottle  painted    after  2000 , therefor  it  captures  the  past  11  years . So   2000  becomes  a  convenient   turning  point  in  IPB  Chronology   as  a  sub-sction  of the   whole  Modern  School  ,  started  by  Wang  Xisan

It  seems  to me  that     the  World-wide   International    IPB-collecting   community   draws a  very  broad  brush  over  the " Modern"  School  . many  members   seem to  think  that  it   starts  and  ends  with   the   Grand  Masters:  Wang Xisan, Liu  Shouben,  Zhang Guangqing,  and  also  - somehow  - Dong  Xue ( son of  Dong  Kun  / pupil  of  Wang  Xisan)   

Of  course  all these   artists  are   Supreme  Grand  Masters , especially   Wang  Xisan , Liu  Shouben, Li  Kechang,  Zhang  Guangqing   etc. 

But  the  Modern "M"   School   does  not  stop there  !

What  about  Wang  Guanyu,   Fu Guoshun, Lu  Jianguang , Huang  San    etc  ?  These  are  the  up-coming    Grand  Masters of the  Ji  School 

Several   of these   top     Modern  artists   were  painting  in  their  hey-day  in the late  1990's / early  2000's    and   have  been  devoutly  collected  by   Singapore  collectors,  to  whom  full credit  is  due  for   perceiving  such  art and  skill   way  ahead  of  time,  especially  re  Wang   Guanyu's  un-parralleled  works

But  the growth  of  the   Modern  School   did   not  stop  at  1990.....indeed  it  suddenly   started  to  blossom  in    about  2000  !

So  I propose that  on this  Forum    " M "   = MODERN   School  refers  to every   bottle   starting  from  Wang  Xisan's earliest   paintings  until  present  time , which of course  is  already   accepted   terminoligy     world-wide


And  I also   NOW  propose  that  " VM "   =  VERY  MODERN  is   considered as a subsection  of  the M - MODERN    School ,  starting   2000.

So  if  you   all  agree

    E  =  Early  School

    ?  =  Middle  School  (  what  to   abbreviate ?   MID  ?  MDL ??  )

    M =   Modern  School, of  which :

            VM  =  VERY  Modern  School  =  post  2000  ( roughly)

Cheers

Peter







 

[Pat - 查尚杰]

These are the generally accepted dates for inside painting, all averaged out:

Early (E) is 1820-1880 (60 years)
Middle School (MS) is 1880 - 1950 (70 years)

Following Peter's suggestion then,

Modern (M) is 1950 -2000 (50 years)
Very Modern is 2000 - ...

Seems to fit

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  Pat,

Thanks  for the  endorsement. 

MS   is  good  for  Middle  School

Just  to clarify  :  I meant   VM  to  be     considered as  a   subset  of    the   whole  Modern  (M)  school ,just as  a  quick  way on the  forum  of   differentiating  pre-2000  from  post - 2000   within the     whole   Modern  School  =  1950  onwards...  and  forever

Cheers  Peter. 

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Just one thought and view point 'why' the snuff bottle collector community thinks of the old or first generation modern masters as the Modern period.  It all has to do with subject matter and 'value' or furure appreciation.  When you think about it.  Most of the old masters used traditional subjects (landscapes inspired by traditional painting, birds, insects, fighting scenes, religious, myth, fable, etc..).  However,these subjects are just part of what the VM artists paint,and there is a strong tendency to move away from the traditional subjects, and use lots of color.  So for this style, AND IF you dont like the modern and abstracts painting styles, you have to know the IP world, and the artists, AND LOVE the bottles.  Very much like people like modern art today, 95pct of what people buy today in modern art is mostly (not all ofcourse, just making a point here) affordable but has no guarantee for appreciation AND show-off/talk-about value.  So this is why people follow the 'known' dealers for tips and some assurance of future value, and the dealers follow the money, so in the end it becomes a vicious cycle.  You talked about J.H. Leung several times, he did not seem to fit in with the typical ICSBS collector attitude and behavior.  Just my view and thinking ...

There are multiple thousands of collectors of snuff bottles allover the world, however, the ICSBS counts a few hundred members.  I rest my case and ask each of you to imagine the reasons why.  Peter got firsthand experience ...

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the  useful  input. 

Maybe   another  reason   why  several  members  of the   ICSBS   earnestly  collect     early    works  of the   Modern School  Grand Masters  (  Wang  Xisan  et al)  in the  period   1950   -  about  1980  is because  many  of  the  bottles  used  at that  time  were  in fact  antique bottles ,  which  had been   cleaned  out     re-painting,    the reason being that  there  was  no production of  suitable bottles  at that  time.    I recall a  comment  by Wang Xisan  somewhere  to the  effect that  he   often  felt  very bad  about  destroying  the  original   old paintings    in the  bottles  he used , even though they  were  presumably not  very  good  quality.

However, I'm not sure  I agree   with you  when you  say there  are "multiple  thousands"  of    snuff bottle  collectors  in the  world.  Mutiple  hundreds/  max  one thousand     yes, but  not  tens  of thousands. The reason I  say that  is that  I  am still  astonished  that this  Forum has so few active  memembers . If   a  collector   is serious  he/she   would  surely  have  stumbled  on to  this  forum   OR would have found some other way to  network  ( eg  just as  I contact   Bill   via his website)  , even if  his collection  is just a  few tens of bottles.

It's  still  a  mystery  to me   where  all the  good   VM  bottles    end up,  and    what  are the  distribution   channels  apart  from the  rare dealers  like   Jill  and  Su  Fengyi. 

On the  other hand....  thinking out  loud :

1.  My  DB is  pretty  comprehensive and  has  certainly   captured   well over  90%  of  all  Modern   School  artists   who  have   ever  painted  and  been  collected.  ( not counting  new students   whose  names  are not yet  recognized)

2. There  are about   400  files names  in the  DB of which   many are   alternate  pen names  (  say :  100   names)

3. Also  many   file names  are those of   minor  artists  who    flourished  for a  brief  while  and  then   stopped  painting ( say : another  100 names) 

4. Also   many of the    file   names  are   masters  who   have now   almost retired and  therefore  are no longer    actively painting   ( say  :  50   names) 

5. So that leaves  about5   150  active  artists  currently painting  ( =  the   VM    artists).

6.  CIPMA  lists   about  150  artists  .  Of course  not all artists  were  included  in CIPMA  because  to be  in CIPMA  an artist  had to  pay a  fee. On the  other  hand,    several  of   the  artists  in CIPMA  no  no longer  paint.

7.  So  150  is  probably  a    realistic    figure the  the number  of   active  VM  artists  today.

8. If  an artist    paints  2  bottles  /  month    that's    24 /  year   : maybe  less  if they  are good  bottles so  say  20 /  year  taking account  non- productive   time. 

9.  If  an artist  can  get  RMB 4 K  per  bottle , which  is   what  I now  pay  as a bottom price for a  good   VM bottle  by a  younger  artist  :     20 x   4,000 =    80,000  p.a., which is  what  I roughly  guess   the     Hengshui   artists  in the   early  30's  earn, , and is   very comparable  to what my company pays a   junior  service  engineer  in BJ, SH  or  GZ, where  of  course   accomdation costs  are much higher than  in Hengshui  ( Of course a  handful  of  VM   artists   hit the  big time  and     get    up to  RMB25K / bottle , but these   are  the exception, not the  rule,  and  probably they   only get to that level  in their  late   40's )
 
9. Therefore total  production of   good   " collectible - grade"  VM bottles  is  about   3,000  / year 

10.  I am  buying  on average   2 - 3  VM   bottles  / month  -  about   30  / year . 

11.  3,000  /  30   =  100  active  serious   collectors  like  me   . Or  if  buying on avearage    1  bottle/ month   that makes    about   300  collectors  world-wide.  There  are  some  super-collectors  like  one   ICSBS   member in  HK  who has   over  1,500  Modern  bottles , and Bill  has  over  600, but these  are the  exception  . 

12. So  reckon that  there  are  only   100  - 200    serious   Modern School  IPB collectors   in the  world,    an increasing   poroportion of   whom are  now in China and Taiwan  , so they  cannot easiy  join this Forum  or network with  Westen collectors  in other  ways.  Some collectors  are very private   and don't like to   network  at all so probaly  when all is said an done    the  total number  of  collectors  who   could  and  would  join this  forum  is  only  about   50  .

Well  - that's my  math  homework for today !

Does  anyone else  have  any insights ?

Cheers   Peter  @  Beijing

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Peter

Good math, as I would expect lol  so on your database tally and summary of artists, in additon to their volume an output, i would generally agree.  But the good old 80/20 rule still applies and I am guessing you are still missing some 100 or so artist names that are decent and better than that, but maybe not as or no longer productive or deceased, or just not yet known.  o I will give you 80 pct completeness but no 90 pct.  Only time will tell.  80 pct is certainly GREAT already!  If it is 90pct, hats off

Also, some terminology and further clarification is in order...

So:

1) I said 'multiple' thousands, .. that isn't tens of thousands as in your reply, it means anywhere from 2,000 - 9,999

2) A IPB collector is ANYONE who collects any multiple of an IPB (that could be 5, 10, or 20), not a crazy fool like me or others (not calling others fools, mind you, only me) with several hundred or more.

3) The ICSBS is very english language centric and 70-80 pct of its members are anglo-saxon language/dialect speaking or educated.  That missed out on about 80 pct of the world, so YES I am convinced there are several thousand of collectors of snuff bottles.  I bet China alone has at LEAST 1000 lurking somewhere in the vast expanse of the country.  Many of these are occasional IPB collectors and it is not their primary interest like us.

4) There are many collectors who just don't want to be known, don't want to talk, don't want to participate, regardless of the language issues.  Just look at this forum as a good example!!  We are down to three active and frequent participants (out of ?). Or perhaps we talk too much lol 

5) 'Antique' IPB snuff bottles (prior to 1910, lets say) were generally less than 3 inches in height.  NOT very many (M) modern painted inside bottles are less than that.  The dealers and proponents just used that as a gimmick to raise the value, they date the bottles as 17xx-18xx, huhum.   Maybe the 'M' painters used 'old' bottles from the turbulent republic era all the way up to the founding of PRC.


 

[George]

2. There  are about   400  files names  in the  DB of which   many are   alternate  pen names  (  say :  100   names)

Peter,

How can I tell which of the 400 on the DB are the 100 with pen names ?

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi George

You    did  not  read the   word-doc    in the   DB    which explains the    coding   system !

The    real name  ( if I know  it)     is always   written   first   wih  the  pen name   second    after  '=' SIGN   eg    "Mr REAL NAME"  =  "Mr  PEN NAME 1  "  =  "Mr  PEN NAME 2 "

Then the   pen  names  are  repeated    with   ' @ '  sign      eg  "Mr  PEN NAME 1"   @  ' Mr REAL NAME ' .

All  the   data  I know  is  stored  in the    REAL NAME   file , but  sometimes  it's repeated  in the   PEN NAME  file

Cheers   Peter

[George]

Ah ! Ok..   

I am sure the codes will start to make sense after using for a while, but my head is spinning at first glance ! 

Say..., can I copy and paste some of the information within that document into the forum ?

The info about the different schools would be good to include here, as well as the information about the different shops ..  Also the "teaching periods" ?

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi George

You are  welcome to  copy     the  info   about  schools  and teaching  periods

But there  is no  shop  information   in the   codes.   The  complicted  letters   refer to the   source  of the  information   and pictures  ( eg  C =  CIPMA)

Please  read the    word-doc  in  detail

Cheers  Peter