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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 28, 2024, 08:28:39 am
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Is this a “eight immortals” motif?

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Author Topic: Is this a “eight immortals” motif?  (Read 970 times)
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S. Alex
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« on: March 04, 2015, 12:07:41 am »

Hi, I’m new to the forum!

A nice Famille-Rose porcelain bottle I came across with octagonal sides (interestingly the bottle can stand on most of them which provides display options).

Two panels showcasing enamel painting of characters. I was wondering if this is a “eight immortals” motif?

With foot mark which I believe is from T’ung-Chih (1862-73)?

S.Alex


* 0004.jpg (155.89 KB, 849x465 - viewed 51 times.)

* Untitled.jpg (66.96 KB, 509x574 - viewed 69 times.)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 02:43:04 am by S. Alex » Report Spam   Logged

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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2015, 02:18:39 am »

Dear S.Alex,
    Welcome to the Forum. I see this is your first post. It might be advisable to post a message in the "Introductions" section, introducing yourself, giving at least minimal personal info (S.Alex is fine as a name, but where you are from, how old you are, what you collect, etc.).
   
    The mark is posted upside down, and the 2nd character from the left looks like an MS sign (Marks and Spencers)!  Wink
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

S. Alex
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2015, 02:58:30 am »

Hi Joey,

Thanks much for the comments and clarifications.

I’m from Europe with a general interest in all types of Snuff Bottles. Sorry for not being more precise but I wish to remain anonymous on the forum..

Thanks for pointing the mark is upside down! I still have problems with older marks.
What I really wanted to know about this bottle was if the characters portrayed are part of the “eight immortals”? and if the design is consistent with 1860’s period?

Tks,
S.Alex
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 04:24:26 am »

Dear S.Alex,

     That's definitely enough info. No-one needs or wants more than you want to share.
Some of us, including myself, are quite voluble on the Forum. Others, like my very close friend Rick, from New Orleans, keep a low profile. Each to his own. I live in Jerusalem, Israel, and have a summer place in County Wexford, Ireland.

     It is just that posting on the "Welcome to the Forum" thread, or whatever it is called, let's all the members know you've joined, and enables us to 'meet and greet' you.

     Giovanni, ('Five Roosters' is his posting name, but he signs his proper name to each post), from northern Italy, is much more experienced in Chinese ceramics than I, and he will no doubt weigh in on those questions. The mark, upside down or rightside up ( Grin), looks quite crudely done, but that may be typical of the reign, though I'd strongly doubt it is Imperial with such a mark.

     George, the founder of the Forum, other veteran members, and our coterie of ethnic Chinese collectors, who have an organic knowledge of the subject,  will be able to help about the Immortals and their familiars/symbols/etc.

     The shape was an imperial one originally, and was copying octagonal European pocket watches given to the Qing Emperors from Kangxi onwards. But I've never, in 45 years of collecting, seen an Imperial octagonal bottle with tao-tie added. I'm not sure I've ever seen any octagonal bottle with tao-tie, before.

    Again, Welcome to the Forum,
     Joey
   



Hi Joey,

Thanks much for the comments and clarifications.

I’m from Europe with a general interest in all types of Snuff Bottles. Sorry for not being more precise but I wish to remain anonymous on the forum..

Thanks for pointing the mark is upside down! I still have problems with older marks.
What I really wanted to know about this bottle was if the characters portrayed are part of the “eight immortals”? and if the design is consistent with 1860’s period?

Tks,
S.Alex

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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 06:46:41 am »

Dear Alex,
welcome to the forum. I am from Italy, so from your same area.
I agree with Joey that the presence of masks on an octagonal bottle is very unusual, nevertheless I think that the bottle is genuine of the Tongzhi period.
Yes on the shown sides there arte three of the eight immortals, precisely Zhongli Quan with his fan, Han XiangZi playing flute and Zhang Guolao with the bamboo drum and iron sticks.
Can you show the other side and the whole base?
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 08:16:27 am »

Warm welcome to the forum S. Alex..

Wonderful bottle !
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S. Alex
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2015, 09:09:48 am »

Dear all,

Thank you very much for your warm welcomes and instructive comments.

Happy and intrigued to learn that such octagonal bottles with handles are actually rare.

I attach the other side and the full base as well.
Regards,
S.Alex


* base.jpg (32.19 KB, 466x281 - viewed 59 times.)

* back2.jpg (63.18 KB, 467x564 - viewed 59 times.)
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2015, 09:43:19 am »

Dear S.Alex,
    The bottle definitely looks like it is Tongzhi and of the period. The mark looks apocryphal.
The rarity of taotie on an octagonal bottle does not add to its monetary value, although it is intriguing.
It looks like a very nice example of the period. Congratulations.
Best,
 Joey



Dear all,

Thank you very much for your warm welcomes and instructive comments.

Happy and intrigued to learn that such octagonal bottles with handles are actually rare.

I attach the other side and the full base as well.
Regards,
S.Alex

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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2015, 09:57:17 am »

Hi Alex

One side of the bottle show

1) Han ZhongLi - the fat guy
2) Han XianZi - the one with flute
3) Zhang GuoLao - the old man
4) Lan ChaiHe - the one like a boy with a basket of flower facing the other side

The other side shows

1) He XianGu - the lady
2) Lu DongBin - the one with sword
3) Tie GuaiLi - the one that has a funny hair style and look like an angry monk
4) Cao Guojiu - the one with official hat facing the other side

Pin
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2015, 03:47:54 pm »

Alex,

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for sharing the bottle.  Looks like all those responding got to your questions quickly.  Nice job guys!

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

S. Alex
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2015, 07:05:23 pm »

Dear all,

Great! Thanks a lot for the fast replies and helping me gain a better picture of this bottle.

I will share more interesting bottles on the forum.

Regards,
S.Alex
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2015, 09:03:10 pm »

Dear Alex,

A warm welcome from a newbie collector Wink

I have to agree with the rest that this is a TongZhi period bottle. Quality is lacking as compared to the period of Qianlong where Qing is rich and talents are kept in imperial workshops.
That's why I think the imperial mark on your bottle is real too. Attached pic is a mark from a bowl I took from Sothebys. You can do your comparison when you flip your pic.

Cheers,
YT


* TongZhi Mark fr a bowl.jpg (59.47 KB, 393x400 - viewed 33 times.)
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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2015, 05:17:07 am »

Dear YT,
     You may well be correct. I would NEVER have considered that a genuine Imperial mark, either.
 Wow, how the mighty have fallen!
Best,
 Joey
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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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