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Chinese Medicine Bottles. Offspring To The Snuff Bottle

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George
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« on: May 30, 2011, 05:26:54 pm »

Very little has been written about Chinese medicine bottles even though these small flasks were being used to hold powdered medicines long before the better known snuff bottles was introduced into China. Snuff bottles were looked on as status symbols and were often made as presents, so their designs combined craftsmanship with greetings. On the other hand, medicine bottles were a necessity and were used by the masses. They were overlooked as works of art although in later years they were often mistaken for, and sold as snuff bottles.
 
Expanding trade contracts in the T'ang dynasty (618-906) resulted in Buddhist monks entering China, bringing with them a knowledge of medicine in India. Their influences led Taoist alchemists to develop the double gourd shaped bottle which also became the symbol of a Taoist medical practitioner.

During the Sung dynasty (906-1279) great advances were made in medical science and the use of powedered herbs and drugs became widespread. Ceramic bottles were made in large quantities, a major production centre being Ch'ang-nan, in Kiangsi province, which was later renamed Chingtechen and is a renowened pottery producing area. These early medicine bottles were not designed to be works of art but to meet the everyday needs of the people. Ting ware and "soft "Chun" ware were the most common types, with the shapes and colours being influenced by Taoist concepts of "purity and simplicity".
Medicine bottles shapes and sizes changed little until the early part of the Ming dynasty (1368-1644). About this time, the small pot like containers for storing remedies began to change shape and became more sophisticated in design. They were ofthen decorated in underglaze blue and white, among the most popular colours for decorating porcelain during the Ming period, with the quality depending on the availability of the Mohammeden blue pigment.

Towards the last half of the Ming dynasty, the cylindrical medicine bottles became taller and more slender, while a flask shaped type also emerged. Both types had narrow necks and small openings. These openings were covered with a small cloth and tied with string or thread. Besides the more common porcelain bottles, some examples of metal and cloisonne containers from the sixteenth century are known.

The snuff bottle had a great influence on the making of medicine bottles and these utilitarian containers even became status symbols, with a degree of artistry of the medicine bottle being an indication of the social level of the user.  The bottles variedin quality under the different emperors, with some of the finest being made during the reigns of K'ang Hsi (1162-1772), Ch"ien Lung (1736-95) and Tao Kuang (1821-50). The more elaborate bottles used folk tales, operas and poetry as decorative themes, with a popular design being repeated many times.

From the beginning of the Ch'ien Lung era to the reign of Hsien Feng (1851-61) there was a revival of the blue and white designs used in the Ming dynasty. Many beautiful bottles were made, but it was not until the nineteenth century that they wer produced in large quantities. A great increas in snuff bottle collecting in the present century resulted in more medicine bottles being converted to meet the demand and many bottles in private collections today were not intended to hold snuff and were probably never used for that purpose.

There are several ways to tell a medicine bottle from its offspring, the snuff bottle. The medicine bottle is usually either larger and more bulky, or it is smaller and more slender. Its most common shapes are the flask, with asquared or rounded shoulders; the square, which can be short and stocky or tall and rectangular: and the cylinder, which is tubular or tapered. Other shapes found are the pilgrim bottle, the round bulb and the double gourd. Regardless of size or shape, medicine bottles have a flat base and are free standing, whereas snuff bottles are not always made to stand.
 
Openings in medicine bottles are usually fairly large and have a small lip; not every medicine bottle has this feature, but it is rarely found at all on snuff bottles. Medicine bottles are usually dull in colour. The majority are decorated in blue and white, with the next most popular colours being the celadons and famille rose enamels found on bottles made in northern China during the second half of the nineteenth century. Colours used are usually less brilliant than those on snuff bottles, an exception being bottles glazed in a single colour such as bright green, red or yellow.

During the nineteenth century, many snuff bottles were produced using design and shapes from seventeenth and eighteenth century medicine bottles, thus making it even more difficult to tell them apart. However, snuff bottles were elaborately embellished and stand out if placed in a group of medicine bottles. A final reminder: generalisations cannot be made about identifying medicine bottles and a single characteristic should not be used to determine the difference between medicine and snuff bottles since many features overlap. The line betwen the two is very fine, but there is a difference.








 



 










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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2011, 06:25:28 pm »

Hi  George

You   could  be  on to  something  new   with this  !

Likewise  :  snuff botle  plates.  At the  new   Wang Xisan  Museum  there  was  one   small   display  cabinet  of   snuff   bottle   plates.  And  I know   for a  fact  that  at least  one  dealer  in BJ  is  now  buying these  plates  at  auctions  round the  world using  on-line  bidding.

Maybe   snuff bottle  plates  and even medicine  bottles   will be  the  next  investment  era  !

But  this    takes  us  back to the  old   dilemma  :  why  do  we  collect  ?   

Obviously   many  -  probably  most  -  collectors   collect  for   rarity / historic  value  =  investment   value.  I have  no  personal problem  with that   when  it  comes to  rarity  value  ( eg   stamps)  or  historic   value  (  eg  Qing  dynasty  vases).  But  I   do  think  it's  ridiculous  when   certain  modern  artists'   works  are  hyped  up  to     astronomic  prices   for   what  I  think  is  pure   rubbish and  would  not  put  in my apartment  even if  you  paid  me  :  eg Andy  Warhol    rubbish  stuff.   Even  Picasso  ....   there's  not  single  work  by  him that  I would  give a   square  inch  in my  apartment  for   display  space   to  his  rubbish.

To  buy  Picasso  (  or  Warhol   or  whatever  new  BS  artist-of-the-decade )  for  investment  ...   well that's  a totally different playing  field  and    certainly  not  a  field   where  I play   ( even  if  I  could  afford  to do  so,  which  of  course  I cannot as a normal  salaried staff )

I  collect  bottles only  because  I think they  are  beautiful  and  because  I    can admire them  every  day  opposite  my   home  work  station. 

When  the  day comes  that  I  start to  buy  bottles  because  they  are  good  investments,  then    you  must   ban me  from this   Forum  forever. 

Cheers   Peter



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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2011, 06:52:50 pm »

I have always been attracted to these bottles because I just really like older antique bottles. 

I see these up for auction from time to time, but with the expertise in copying, I am never absolutely sure of their authenticity.

Many can be purchased at real reasonable prices. So for someone like myself, who enjoys the antique bottles, it is an affordable add on to my snuff bottle collection.

I see them all the time being sold as snuff bottles. Which is fine, as I can tell the difference. The other thing I like about them is that they all have a base that allows the bottle to stand up. I never have even given a second look to snuff bottles that do not stand up.  Just a little collecting quirk I have..

So for me, purchasing these little beauties could be affordable, enjoyable to collect, they are beautiful, antique, and yes......, perhaps even a fair long term investment. 

I don't want to be banned for that last thought though !!  Grin

 
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2011, 07:37:20 pm »

Hi  George

From the  moment  I  joined  this  Forum  I sensed  that  you  think  much  the  same  way  as  I  do  : that  beauty and  artistic  value  is  No 1 , plus  a   certain  "bonus"  for   rarity  value 

That  can apply  to  anything  :   IPBs,  snuff bottle  trays,  medicine  bottles, or  whatever

Collectors   are  COLLECTORS :  that's  fact  of  life.  And  every  collector  collects  for  his  own personal  reasons.

This  past  weekend  in Beijing   for  the  opening  of the  Wang Xisan  BJ  Museum  I met  many collectors.

Wonderful   experience! 

Every  collector I talked  to  one-to-one  talked  at  length  to  extoll  his/her  personal  collection  AND  THAT'S  GREAT !

I   ended  the  weekend  feeling  very  humbled.  I thought  my  passion  for  my prime  focus  : the   Very  Modern  "VM"  School  was    tops,   but  I  learned that  other  collectors'   passion  for their  own  particular  focuses  is  even  greater  by far .

So  am  I   back to my  school boy  days    just  collecting  matchbox  labels  .....  cheap  but  diversified,  small,   and  often  beautiful  ?   

Yes and  no.   

But   certainly   I am  very  happy  with  my collecting, whatever  it  is,   and  that's  all  that  matters  to me, personally.

And  I am   more  determined  than  ever  to make as  big  a  difference  to  the    world-wide  appreciation  of the    Modern  School , especially the  "VM"   School,  as  J. H. Leung  did  in his  day , 20  years  ago. 

I  retire  in  2  years  from  now,  and  from  the    day I retire  I pledge  to  devote  all  my   energy to  promoting  the  VM  School  and  its  artists.   But  only, ever, as a   collector  , never  as a  dealer,  as  did  J.H. Leung  in  his  day  20  years  ago .

Cheers  Peter  @  Beijing

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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2011, 10:45:51 pm »

Interesting thread guys.  One clarification though George on the not-standing-up snuff bottles, often bottles specifically made and intended for female use were able to be hung around the neck.  In addition, the Manchu long sleeves (think of oversized dress shirt sleeves of today) had no need for bottles able to be standing up, they acted as giant pockets.  You could be missing out on some great stuff ;-)  Finally, as to size, they say that ANY bottle over 4 inches was never intended for personal snuff use, only for family/host/table use or for display, period.  80 pct plus of real old bottles are less than 7cm in height, as a result.  This is one of the major differentiators in the major advancement of the modern school: bigger bottles AND much better tools, brushes, in addition to better paints, oil paints.  We have to NEVER forget that part of the distinction between old and new.  Some of the older bottles I have look like abstract, rudimentary bottles, but we forget sometimes that the space and tools they had to work with are sooooo different.
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2011, 01:16:52 am »


But   certainly   I am  very  happy  with  my collecting, whatever  it  is,   and  that's  all  that  matters  to me, personally.



Exactly.. !


Interesting thread guys.  One clarification though George on the not-standing-up snuff bottles, often bottles specifically made and intended for female use were able to be hung around the neck.  In addition, the Manchu long sleeves (think of oversized dress short sleeves) had no need for bottles able to be standing up, they acted as giant pockets.  You could be missing out on some great stuff ;-) 

Thanks Pat for the clarification on the non standing bottles, and I may well be missing out on some beauties..

I did almost catch myself bidding on a nicely carved, non standing, yellow Jade bottle earlier today. I liked it enough that I tried to visualize different ways to make a stand for it. Somthing it could lean back and upright on..  In the end, decided against it   Wink

 
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2011, 01:54:57 am »

Hi  George

Amen  and  and  AMEN

We  all should  collect  what  we  love  to collect,  for    whatever  reason

Scholarship   helps  to refine   collecting  habits.  hence  this   website  and  our  informal    interactions.  and  in  a  wider  sense  the     scholarship  of the  ICSBS  may  be  of  help  ( that  was  a  point  made  very  openly   by  Bertha  Ford  at  the  opening  ceremony  of   the  WXS  Museum  last  friday  ) 

But  finally  love   beats    all   Cheesy

Cheers  Peter  ( in-love)   
 
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« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2012, 12:39:08 pm »

Want to add a book reference that Tom just sent me to this topic..

Raymond Li’s “The Medicine-Snuff Bottle Connection”, published by Nine Dragons, Hong Kong, 1979,

Thanks Tom  Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2012, 10:26:12 pm »

Hi George,

Thanks for resuscitating this thread. Your opening post (at top of page) really sums up very well the connection between snuff powder and other medicinal substances. As collectors of snuff bottles, we tend to overlook the influence one had on the other.
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2016, 09:55:04 pm »

Hi George and all,
Thanks for the refresher : medicinal bottles > snuff bottles.
I enjoy reading the notes.
I agree with Peter concerning ' collecting ' vs. ' dealing '.
But then, Peter, sometimes deep in our heart, there is
always a lurking thought of ' probable future appreciation '
as we hold a beauty in our palm and ponder whether to
acquire it or not 😊😊 This thought becomes more real
when we think of disposing the bottles when you realise
that you are the only one in the family who appreciates
Snuff bottles.
George, I also agree with Pat that you should not dismiss
bottles that cannot stand. I simply me them rest horizontally!
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2016, 10:30:46 pm »

This thought becomes more real
when we think of disposing the bottles when you realise
that you are the only one in the family who appreciates
Snuff bottles.
Dear Inn Bok,

Take whatever opportunity to share your collection with your children as you can.
Recently I was contacted by a descendant of a very famous collector whom I have won a few bottles. He wanted to buy back one lot at a very high premium to me. I can only assume the bonding time between the family long ago.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2016, 11:49:40 pm »


Take whatever opportunity to share your collection with your children as you can.
Recently I was contacted by a descendant of a very famous collector whom I have won a few bottles. He wanted to buy back one lot at a very high premium to me. I can only assume the bonding time between the family long ago.


Dear YT,

Wise words indeed....ones I should make note of to remember!

Tom
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2016, 04:44:42 am »

My only problem with this wonderful thread is the title.
It should read "Chinese Medicine Bottles: The Ancestors of Snuff Bottles."   Roll Eyes Grin
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2016, 04:51:40 am »

Dear Joey,

You are perfectly correct. But why wait 5 years to say so...?!?   Huh

Best,
Tom
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2016, 06:02:14 am »

The message went on camel back along the Silk Road ...  Grin Shocked lol
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2016, 06:08:41 am »

Lol!!  Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2016, 09:35:40 am »

Dear Tom,

     This is my first time reading this thread!
I actually don't know how I missed it when I joined in early 2012... Grin  Roll Eyes

Dear Pat,

    Good one - Silk Road reference! I laughed out loud at that one!  Grin Wink

Best to all,
Joey


Dear Joey,

You are perfectly correct. But why wait 5 years to say so...?!?   Huh

Best,
Tom
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2016, 09:41:47 am »

Dear Joey,

I would stick to the Silk Road excuse, if I were you.   Cheesy

Best,
Tom
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2016, 09:44:11 am »

Dear Tom,

     If you look, you will see that it was my first post on this thread.
Have you EVER known me to read a thread and not respond?!  Roll Eyes Grin
Best,
Joey



Dear Joey,

I would stick to the Silk Road excuse, if I were you.   Cheesy

Best,
Tom
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2016, 10:11:59 am »

Dear Joey,

Fair enough.

Tom
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