Greetings !

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear David,
 
     First of all, why couldn't I be a Saint while alive?  I can't be a 'Martyr', and alive, so I will give the 'Martyr' gig a miss, G-D Willing. 
     If you were to meet my late mom's Hematologist, Dr. Jacky Ashkenazi, and then you met his wife Shosh, you would say, "Now this man is not only an Angel of Mercy, he is literally a Living Saint!" He'd want to be, to not have divorced her! And no judge who'd met her would convict him if he killed her! 

     Second, what kind of cheapskate are you?! I should live only till 99?!     
In judaism, we bless people, "May you live till 120!".  My late mom, imitating a dear friend, would say, "till 100 LIKE 20!".
     My Aunt Elsie lived past 105; my Uncles Meyer and Harry, till 103; my Aunts Ettie, Lillian, Fanny and Bessie, past 101; my Uncle Sam, till 100.   

     And Medicine is making greater and greater strides forward.

Re. the 'blue'; maybe they like their lamb that level of cooking? 
Personally, I'd want mine well done. 
     It's very good that you are learning more English words here. So am I...

Best,
   Joey

Dear Joey the Jocular,

Since you are alive and well (and I hope you reach the grand old age of 99), I will not refer you as St.   

  Got to love Thesaurus.com  Can't believe I am learning more english word this forum.

[David]

Dear Joey,

LOL! That is my way of being generous, 99 means 久久 "long long".  Reach the ripe old age of "long long". Since no defined end point, it means never reached, so live as long as you desire.   

Wow, you have some impressive genes! You can teach my grandkids about snuff bottle. 

Benevolently.
David

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear David,
    You are forgiven. I did not know the symbolism.

     But again, you are shortchanging me!   
Why just your grandchildren? What about your great grandchildren?!      

     We have a joke about a 75 year old man, in the doctor's surgery for his annual checkup.
"Wow, Mr. Cohen! Your results are in, and you have the physical condition of a 35 yr. old athlete! You could live a lot longer! How old was your father when he died?"
"Doctor! how can you speak like that! My father's still alive and healthy, at 97!", Cohen retorts.
"Mr. Cohen, I'm so sorry! I meant no offence! How old was your grandfather, when he died?"
"Doctor! how can you speak like that! My grandfather's still alive and healthy, at 121!", Cohen replies.
"Mr. Cohen, again I'm so sorry! I meant no offence! So how old was your great  grandfather, when he died?"
"Doctor! how can you speak like that! My great grandfather's still alive and healthy...      

In great health, Thank G-D,
Joey

Dear Joey,

LOL! That is my way of being generous, 99 means 久久 "long long".  Reach the ripe old age of "long long". Since no defined end point, it means never reached, so live as long as you desire.   

Wow, you have some impressive genes! You can teach my grandkids about snuff bottle. 

Benevolently.
David

[David]

Dear Joey,

Now I understand why people always say the Jewish people drive a hard bargain and pay attention to details! LOL, 

Fine, you can teach as many of my future generations as you desire! That should cover it right? 

Best of health to you for as many years as you desire... I learned 

David

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear David,

    Those terms are acceptable (teaching as many generations as I am able, and living as long as G-D Gives me [HE Decides, not us]). 

     I had a professor at Hebrew U. in Jerusalem, Dr. Raymond Cohen. Once, in passing, he said that the Chinese Diaspora (those Chinese living outside their historic homeland) all over SE Asia, had been called "the 'Jews' of the Far East", because their 'business model'  was almost identical.

     Individuals of both groups were coming to a new place often times with nothing; working hard; pushing their children to excel and to pass them economically and also scholastically; and helping each other, especially if from the same locality 'back home'.

     And also, being persecuted by some of the 'locals', who could have done exactly the same thing if they'd been willing to sacrifice in the same way present advantage for much greater future advantage [deferred gratification] for themselves and even more, for their children and grandchildren, etc.

     But Prof. Cohen said that this was wrong, because of the following:
1. The Chinese Diaspora encompasses the whole world outside of China: SE Asia, Africa, Europe, the Americas, Oceania; and comprises over 50 million, and while the expansion into everywhere but East Asia is after that of the Jews, the Chinese Diaspora is 10 times the Jewish one in numbers (it would have been 'only' 5 times, but for Hitler and the Holocaust), and in development model.
   
     We are a few hundred years older as a nation, but we were primarily farmers and herders  the first 1200 years of our national existence. In fact, in Proverbs, the term for merchant is 'Canaanite'!
Jews WEREN'T in business till the Babylonian Exile, ca. 586 BCE.

    So, since Overseas Chinese are over 50 million, and Diaspora Jews are about 6 million, he suggested that, rather than calling the Overseas Chinese in East Asia 'The Jews of East Asia',  we Jews should be called the  'Overseas Chinese' of Europe and the Americas!

   Best,
    Joey

[David]

Dear Joey,

Whew... next time I will be extra careful when wishing you something auspicious. 

I always believed the ones that will risk everything, when all is lost, leave the past behind and go to a foreign place to restart and wait for the next chance are predisposed to be more successful one way or the other.

The core trait is never give up. 

Warmly,
David

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear David,
 
       It is very interesting, that the vast majority of Jews and Chinese (and other East Asians, actually; at least Koreans, Japanese, and Vietnamese, that I know), want their children to pass them economically and scholastically (while still being respectful of course), while many people in European, African, West Asian and Central Asian cultures see nothing wrong in their kids having the same life they had (ie., if they are farmers, so should their kids; otherwise, they are 'disrespecting' their elders).

     I have a friend who is Irish American from Ohio. Her father, brothers and male ancestors were or are coal miners, with barely high school, if that; her mom, sisters and female ancestors were or are maids etc. She insisted on going to learn to be a nurse, and then married a doctor from a wealthy family!  Do you think her family were happy with her 'passing' them?  No!
     
     Of course, the fact that they were poor, devout, Roman Catholic Irish, and her  husband being Jewish (from Detroit) may have had something to do with the condolences her family got over the wedding, but her graduation as a nurse also resulted, in such messages, where friends and family consoled her immediate family over her 'disloyalty' to them. After all, if marrying a coal miner and being a maid was good enough for 8 generations of the women in her family, why wasn't it good enough for her?

     You should see the diamond engagement ring she received; I joked with them once on Diamond Head (they have lived in Honolulu since their marriage, 33 years ago), that she could signal ships out at sea with it! And their home on Wilder St., in one of Honolulu's posher areas, is nothing to be ashamed of,  either. 

     I happened to meet some of her siblings, visiting with her in Honolulu; they were still 'ashamed' over her 'good fortune', thanks to the couple's hard work (and with the husband's [Jewish] family  of course also contributing towards helping their children improve their lives even more).
 
     Hearing that I was a Senator in Ireland, they actually apologised over her behaving 'above her station', in treating me as an equal! I told them that she was not my equal; she was my superior!
She had pulled herself up by her own initiative and hard work to a position where she saved lives.

     I was born to my wealth, and sadly, as a rule can not save lives (except for the time I used the Heimlich maneuvre; but I also broke the woman's rib, which can often happen. I apologised for the injury, but she thanked me for saving her from choking to death. She made the point that the discomfort did NOT outweigh the lifesaving, and with a laugh, told me an Irish saying:  "Get off the cross; someone needs the wood!". Ie., I should stop falsely berating myself and get a hold of myself.).
   
    Their answer?  "But you are a member of 'The  Quality', and that's how 'The Quality' has always behaved." (!) 

    When I replied that all human beings were created equal by G-D, and that all had equal potential to do good or evil, and that what one did with that potential was the mark of one's 'quality', NOT being born to a big house or a wealthy family, they asked if I'd been 'brainwashed' by the Jews!   
I asked if they meant Jews like Jesus, the Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene, Joseph, Simon Peter, Luke, John, James, Matthew and Paul. I said I was not influenced by any of them.

    Her family said that they didn't mean those people, who were all Christian saints or The Son of G-D!  No, they meant 'The Jews'.  My reply was, "Oh yes; in fact I am one!" I then got up, and said,
"Irish people in Ireland can't stand most Irish Americans who visit, though all my friends, both Catholic and Protestant, loved your sister and her husband. They say about most of you: "you can take the Irish out of the bog, but you can't take the bog out of the Irish!". I never before understood what they meant!". 

    Leaving, I said,"Oh, I'm not from stock who are 'longtime Gentry'; we are 'Nouveau Riche'. But better 'Nouveau Riche' than not 'Riche' at all!"     

   David,  you should thank G-D that you come from the culture you come from; Giovanni has the same attitude of wanting to achieve more than his forebears, and have his children surpass him; and  many Protestant Christians have the same world-view, thanks to their Faith's active espousal of what they saw as  'Jewish' virtues; but most Catholics, some Protestants, and most Russisans, Africans,  Hindus, Arabs, and other Moslems,  most definitely do not.

  Shabbat Shalom,
      Joey

[OIB]

Dear Joey,

It is interesting to read your posts while relaxing on this 3rd day of our Chinese New Year.
It is the first time I read of describing the Jews as ' overseas Chinese in Europe and the Americas ' ( as quoted by you in your story relating to your professor ) ! There is a big  difference, though, between the Jews and the Chinese  -  your people have a common religion in Judaism that binds you together. The Chinese, say, in mainland China do not have a common religion. So are the Chinese in all continents.

You mentioned that the Jews were in business after the Diaspora in the 6th century BC. I thought the idea of Jews being in business was alluded to in the your Wisdom literature ( known as The Proverbs in the English Bible ). In the last chapter of the Proverbs, the virtuous housewife was selling garments to the merchants ?

I thought the coal miners could still encourage their offsprings to be in the coal mining trade, but do better by becoming owners of coal mines !!  , and becoming bosses of maid agencies !!

Inn Bok

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Inn Bok,

    I was EXACTLY referring to Proverbs 31! It says a woman of valour sells a belt "to the Canaanite". The Canaanite is the merchant; the woman the producer of 'piece work'.
    Just like Irish women on the Aran Islands making their traditional sweaters to sell via  shops in Galway. They got paid by the piece (hence the name), and the shop owner made the lion's share of the profit, since he paid up front and had to hold it till he found a buyer.

    Re. coal miners becoming coal mine owners; with all due respect, in what world are you living?  Some guy, black with coal dust in his lungs and all over his body for minimum wage, and getting drunk every Friday aft. to Sunday aft., buying the mine?! Yeah sure. Oh wait, I see pigs flying in the skies over Jerusalem. The Moslems are going to scream Islamophobia and get violent! 

Best,
   Joey

Dear Joey,

It is interesting to read your posts while relaxing on this 3rd day of our Chinese New Year.
It is the first time I read of describing the Jews as ' overseas Chinese in Europe and the Americas ' ( as quoted by you in your story relating to your professor ) ! There is a big  difference, though, between the Jews and the Chinese  -  your people have a common religion in Judaism that binds you together. The Chinese, say, in mainland China do not have a common religion. So are the Chinese in all continents.

You mentioned that the Jews were in business after the Diaspora in the 6th century BC. I thought the idea of Jews being in business was alluded to in the your Wisdom literature ( known as The Proverbs in the English Bible ). In the last chapter of the Proverbs, the virtuous housewife was selling garments to the merchants ?

I thought the coal miners could still encourage their offsprings to be in the coal mining trade, but do better by becoming owners of coal mines !!  , and becoming bosses of maid agencies !!

Inn Bok

[David]

Dear Joey,

Thank you for more lessons on general traits of a culture.

while many people in European, African, West Asian and Central Asian cultures see nothing wrong in their kids having the same life they had (ie., if they are farmers, so should their kids; otherwise, they are 'disrespecting' their elders).

I believe you as I did noticed that in some people, but I could never understand it. It is amazing how far the people you mentioned can take it. This kind of adherence to "tradition" is so odd. I wonder if they were the ones that were "brainwashed" by the past lords/kings/religious to be content with their "station" in life and make governing them easier.


I just feel sad with how much people that I once knew/grew up with changed, but I never feel bad as being Chinese nor regret the way I was brought up. It is their choice to live their ways, and I am extremely content with the way I choose mine. So,  I do thank the "energy" and behave in ways that I believe is right.

Warmly,
Shabbat Shalom,
David

[David]

Dear Joey and Inn Bok,

There is a big  difference, though, between the Jews and the Chinese  -  your people have a common religion in Judaism that binds you together.

Inn Bok hit the nail on the head with this comment. Plus the amount of faith and perseverance a large portion will adhere to it, ensuring that your culture and tradition will survive as long as your people does (it is so entwined with your way of life, maybe that is another reason why the Jewish people were so often persecuted, you can not be assimilated into their culture).

But, we can reserve this "will Traditional Chinese survive in the modern world" discussion into a face to face one in the future one day.  It is a long long one.

Kindly,
Shabbat Shalom,
David

[OIB]

Joey,

I assume that the sayings in the Proverbs were from Jewish oral traditions long before the Exiles of the 6th Century BC. So what you said about Jews weren't in business after the Exile

" Jews WEREN'T in business till the Babylonian Exile, ca. 586 BCE "

might not be accurate if the act of doing business with Canaanites were already in existence before the compilation of the Proverbs ?? 

Inn Bok

[rpfstoneman]

OK, I need a little clarity on the Chinese zodiac. 

Some are saying it is the year of the goat and others the ram.  Here in the United States there is a distinction between a male goat (billy or buck) and a male sheep (ram).  So is this the year of the goat or sheep?  The New Year's celebration commentary as seen on the internet and news seems to be osculating between goat and ram.  I presume it should be goat, but a number of sources are traipsing around sheep.  So could someone in the know set me straight.  Is it a goat or ram?

It took a 6 hour road trip to Eugene Oregon in the last two days and a discussion over netsukes the to get the answer my question.  Apparently all cloven hoofed animals with a coat (ex, goat, sheep, etc.) in China are considered to be a ram.  At least that was what I was told.

Charll

[YT]

Dear Charll,

The correct Chinese character is 羊 yáng, It is a general word describing Sheep, Goat, Ram....
In-depth, we further describe them as 山羊-mountain goat, 绵羊-Sheep. 

Cheers,
YT

[David]

Dear Charll and YT,

Please take the following in good humor... I can't resist... 

The squirrel (松鼠), and hippopotamus (河馬) must be overjoyed that they will soon be on the cover of New Year cards and decorations.   

Let's not forget about the seahorse (海馬) and kangaroo (袋鼠).

Mischievously,   
David

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Inn Bok,

    You misunderstand the text. The term 'Canaanite' in this context MEANS 'merchant'. It refers to his ethnicity as well as to his job. And a farm wife selling extra eggs or handmade quilts is NOT in business; she is just trying to get a bit of a nest egg above subsistence agriculture to buy herself a little treat or to be ready for a problem.

     The BUSINESSMEN (ie merchants) were the urbanised Canaanites, NOT the vast majority of agriculturally based Israelites (1250-727 BCE) or Judahites (1250-586 BCE).

    The law of the "Sabbatical Year" ('Shnat Shmita', in Hebrew; this year of 5775 is such a year), mandates that all rural properties which might have been sold to cover debts since the last S.Y.,  7 years earlier, MUST, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, return to their original owners, since they were originally given by G-D to the families for their possession when we entered the Land of Israel under Joshua. It is an Eternal Inheritance From G-D.  But city properties sold to cover debts are redeemable for the money paid for 1 year; after that, they are the property of the buyer in perpetuity. 

    We were mainly small-holding farmers and herdsmen; NOT Businessmen. There were 'Princes', our tribal aristocracy, who had more land and many had town-houses. But they, like British Landed Gentry up to the 19th C. (and even later), looked down on 'Trade' and did not do business. At most, they might have bought a Canaanite slave, and had him deal with investments.
   
    Only after we were forcibly exiled from our land did we become a nation mainly of merchants and city-dwellers. And, 70 years later, when Cyrus the Great of Persia allowed Jews to return to our Land, most of our people who returned (only an estimated 20%, added to the 20% who'd been left to tend the fields etc. for our conquerors), returned to their fields and cattle (a few cows, but mainly sheep and goats). It was mainly Diaspora Jews (those Jews living outside The Land) who were in business.
   
    When Ezra & Nechemya wanted to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, they had to order the farmers etc., to supply a levy of labourers (the reason for the name at all, is because the Levites, the only tribe of the 12 sons of Jacob to be denied land, were Urbanites and supplied both the State and Temple bureaucracies with their staff; few of them had time to be merchants) to do the work.

    The urbanised, cosmopolitan, polished Jew stereotype is based on the Jews exiled from their ancestral lands and forced to survive any way they could. And G-D Blessed us with brains and the way to use them. Every Shmita year, besides letting the land lay fallow for a whole year, the farmers studied the whole year! So our 'farmers' weren't just ignorant peasants; they were educated (though still most probably, quite conservative, as most country people tend to be). 

    The fact that Jewish men were universally educated from the 6th C BCE, and women from the 1st C BCE, did contribute to more ease of success when they became urbanised.

    Best,
     Joey

Joey,

I assume that the sayings in the Proverbs were from Jewish oral traditions long before the Exiles of the 6th Century BC. So what you said about Jews weren't in business after the Exile

" Jews WEREN'T in business till the Babylonian Exile, ca. 586 BCE "

might not be accurate if the act of doing business with Canaanites were already in existence before the compilation of the Proverbs ?? 

Inn Bok

[OIB]

Joey,

Thanks a lot for the historical background on the relationship between the Jews and
their business engagement  Your long discourse enables me to have a deeper understanding
of the context of Proverbs.

Inn Bok

[rpfstoneman]

The correct Chinese character is 羊 yáng, It is a general word describing Sheep, Goat, Ram....
In-depth, we further describe them as 山羊-mountain goat, 绵羊-Sheep.

Thanks YT.  The above adds further clarity to the "Year of the Ram".  I finally got the connection in the use of the yang (羊) character as it applies to a number of animals.  Thanks again for the education. 

Charll

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Inn Bok,
     My pleasure. But you must also realise that Proverbs must date at the latest to the 9th C BCE, because by then there were no Canaanites left (they'd been absorbed into our population) and Phoenicians were the main merchant (business) class.
     The fact that it doesn't say "...girdles she makes and delivers to the Phoenician", but to the "Canaanite" is a very good way of dating the material; it must be from ca. 1100 - 900 BCE, and actually, from Judah (Phoenicians were the main business class from 1200 - 500 BCE on the coast north of Jaffa to what's now (still) coastal Syria, and inland in Kingdom of Israel, presently called by us Samaria and Galilee; by the Arabs and their supporters, northern West Bank and northern Palestine).

   From ca.900  BCE, the Phoenicians were almost the only merchant class in the Kingdom of Judah.  This was at least partially because they were allies of Kings David  and Solomon. After 516 BCE, this was taken over by merchants connected to the Persian satrap (or governor), Jewish and non-Jewish, although there were still many Phoenician merchants quite prominent in the local economy.  At some stage, due to Persian political and economic pressure, the vast majority of the Phoenician merchant and seafaring population migrated westward to Malta, Sardinia, and to central and western North Africa (as opposed to Phoenician farmers and herders, who stayed put, possibly as a result of having no choice).

  And then Greek merchants supplanted the Persian merchants etc., when Alexander the Great took over our neighbourhood but gave us total religious autonomy. We weren't forced to worship him as a god, which we would have fought to the death; because he didn't try to force us, we respected & loved him as a righteous leader, and to this day, many families name sons Alexander, in his honour, 2300+ years later. Our leaders mandated in 333 BCE, after Alexander bowed down to our High Priest Simon the Just, that every boy born in the coming year would be named after the great king.
How many of the descendants of those who worshiped him as a god 2300 years ago, STILL do?

  Best,
     Joey
    

[David]

Dear Joey,

Thank you for more explanation on your history and the surround areas.

Every Shmita year, besides letting the land lay fallow for a whole year, the farmers studied the whole year!

This is so interesting... do every farmer in Israel (back then) let the land rest? Or is there some kind of rotation system? I am wondering, if all the farmers are resting the land, what do they do for food?


If all land sold to cover debt, needs to be returned... why would anyone buy it? Or is the buyer/seller in agreement that it is just a loan? Do they really still follow this in Israel in modern days?


One other thing I don't understand, if your calendar is at 5775 this year. Does this means that ~3800 years ago your people became the Israel nation (recalling your jokes regarding the Jewish people and Chinese restaurant)? What is this calendar based on (sorry, if this sound ignorant, but I did not know there is a different Jewish year).

Curiously,
David