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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 18, 2018, 02:41:21 pm
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dating a Fo dog with its puppy

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Author Topic: dating a Fo dog with its puppy  (Read 558 times)
YT
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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2015, 07:00:51 pm »

Dear Georges,

This is from the Enamel series of the Bloch collection book 6, Pink colour binding, 1197.

Looks like you have a JiaQing dated Fo Lion. I am quite sure yours belong to one of the batches but the wears are quite serious.

Cheers,
YT


* FoLion1.jpg (151.81 KB, 800x600 - viewed 36 times.)

* FoLion2.jpg (232.48 KB, 800x600 - viewed 11 times.)
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Joey
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2015, 05:03:56 pm »

Dear Georges,
    It has me stumped but I certainly prefer yours to the Crane collection example, the Sotheby's one or the last one.  I would tend to trust Giovanni's opinion re. Chinese ceramics, and he agrees it has age; the big question: is it Chinese or a Japanese copy of a Chinese original albeit early- to mid-19th C.?
    Damned if I know.  Wink
Shabbat Shalom,
  Joey
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Tom B.
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2015, 11:56:21 am »

Dear Georges,

Congratulations on a nice addition to your collection. Sorry for my late reply, but you have done good research already.  I agree with Joey that it is an early 19th century Chinese example.

Best regards,

Tom B.
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2015, 01:38:02 pm »

Thanks guys for your useful comments.

In the meantime, I've found about 20 coloured examples in auction catalogues and books. The same contrast between coloured and white examples exists with recumbent lions. The white example is from my collection, the coloured one from an auction in 1985.

Joey: could all the commentators be wrong in attributing these bottles to China and the first half of the 19th century?

Best regards

Georges


* Fo Hund liegend Soth NY 160485.jpeg (124.35 KB, 588x353 - viewed 18 times.)

* Fo_liegend.jpg (37.73 KB, 512x223 - viewed 18 times.)

* Fo_liegend 2.jpg (36.47 KB, 497x238 - viewed 15 times.)
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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2015, 02:52:17 pm »

Dear all,
somehow I have missed the further posts in this thread.
Dear Tom B., you know Chinese porcelain very well. Don't you think that what we see in the detail of the face that Georges has shown in his post #19 is really unusual? What is that blue enamel? It is completely different from the usual one. It has a dull tone, it is has a mat surface, it is full of big burst bubbles like those seen in Jun glaze.
Beside that, I also found strange the red enamel, which is completely different from those seen on Chinese ware.
To me this is  a strange bottle. I can't say that it is Japanese because I know almost nothing in that field, but if Chinese it is a really odd one. Unless the pictures are completely fooling me.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2015, 03:34:33 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

apart from the wear, is there really such a tremendous difference between the 5 attached pictures?

Kind regards

Georges



* Fo_lions.jpg (127.75 KB, 1485x391 - viewed 22 times.)
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2015, 05:19:16 pm »


All,

This is just a thought or maybe more of a question.  If documentation on green eyed dragon porcelain bottles indicates the such works are Guangxu and later, why would not the same apply to these Fu Dog molded pieces?  Just a question.

Charll 
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2015, 05:34:24 pm »

Dear Georges,
    I first stated I thought it was Chinese and ca.1800-1850, but that I'm not good at judging over the 'net.
   Also, Giovanni knows Chinese ceramics much better than me.
   But so does TomB. TomB agrees with my first statement, that it is Jiaqing/Daoguang. I wrote you that I liked it better than the other examples posted (Crane Collection, one from Bonham's (I think a Bloch bottle), etc.).   
   I don't know if auction house appraisers' opinions are all valid. From experience, I'd say not.  Wink
But I still like this bottle.
Best,
 Joey


Thanks guys for your useful comments.

In the meantime, I've found about 20 coloured examples in auction catalogues and books. The same contrast between coloured and white examples exists with recumbent lions. The white example is from my collection, the coloured one from an auction in 1985.

Joey: could all the commentators be wrong in attributing these bottles to China and the first half of the 19th century?

Best regards

Georges
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Tom B.
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« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2015, 12:41:34 pm »

Dear Giovanni, Joey, and all,

For me there is no doubt that this is an early example of molded porcelain snuff bottle.  The condition with extreme wear is uncommon, but I have seen a number of early glass snuff bottles that are similarly worn as though they were tumbling down a sandy riverbed for the last 150 years. Smiley

The  porcelain paste and glaze are distinctly Chinese.  The enamels with the exception of the later added rose-red wash, are exactly what I would ant to see on a late 18th-early 19th C Famille Rose Chinese porcelain.  If you look at the face of the puppy you can see that the offending red was added later.  The original red at the base is spot on.

Best regards,

Tom B.
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Best regards,

Tom B.

rosegl
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« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2015, 02:24:51 pm »

Dear Tom B.,

thanks for your expertise!

Regards

Georges
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« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2015, 05:56:52 pm »

Dear Georges,
to me there is a difference about the five examples, I see the last one (which is your one) less detailed than the other four. It looks younger but I can be wrong. My problem is with the enamels and glaze, which are new to me. In the first picture below we can see that the blue is flaked off in some places and you said that in those places there is the white glaze under the blue. Hence the blue is an over glaze blue enamel. But in the second picture we see the blue and the white glaze perfectly fused together, the blue is sunk into the glaze. That is very odd to me.
Kind regards
Giovanni


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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2015, 07:56:42 am »

Dear all,
one of the problems might be that illustrations in books and catalogues are not detailed enough. I just discover a similar bottle on an online page by Christie's (https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/chinese-works-of-art-online-only-snuff-bottles-books/an-enameled-buddhist-lion-form-porcelain-bottle-14/1062/). At first glance, everything seems okay. There is however a possibility to zoom for seeing the details. You then discover similar deteriorations to the blue glaze. In the condition report it reads:
"We have sought to record changes in the condition of this piece acquired after its initial manufacture. Some blue areas appear to have been overpainted on the shoulders, legs, and head. The enamels and gilding are rubbed on the waist areas of the bottle, including the hind legs, the ears, the brocade ball and the face. There is a small chip to the nose and minute polished nicks to the mouthrim."
How about other items?

Kind regards

Georges


* Fo Christies cub Kopie.jpg (122.86 KB, 2034x1032 - viewed 13 times.)

* Fo Chisties Kopf Kopie.jpg (108.25 KB, 1842x1102 - viewed 14 times.)
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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2017, 05:18:14 pm »

I wanted to revive this thread with a Buddhist Lion bottle that I recently acquired that is similar to the one George posted in this thread. The bottle seems to have age, but I cannot find this particular mold listed anywhere. There are big differences in this mold and the previous ones listed - the lion's arm is crooked up, the facial expression is different, the baby is facing to the side, etc. It's also very very dirty and appears to have some oxidation, but I'm afraid to clean it for fear that would damage it. Would appreciate opinions and would like to know if anyone else has seen this particular mold. Thanks!



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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2017, 06:12:10 pm »

The bottle belongs to Georges, from Switzerland; rather than George, from Washington state.
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2017, 09:02:36 pm »

Oh! Gotcha - sorry Georges and George - my mistake.
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« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2017, 08:52:11 am »

Hey good morning,

I posted this Buddhist Lion bottle a couple of days ago. I was wondering if any members had seen this particular mold, and could point me to references? (see original post two posts back)

thanks!
Cathy
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« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2017, 11:42:23 am »

I can not help Cathy... Sorry !
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« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2017, 02:13:33 pm »

Thanks George! It's obscure for sure! In one of my books Hugh Moss mentions there were a lot of different molds for these and was looking for examples. I don't have all of the ICSBS journals so don't know if he ever followed up.
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