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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 18, 2018, 03:28:54 pm
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dating a Fo dog with its puppy

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Author Topic: dating a Fo dog with its puppy  (Read 558 times)
rosegl
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« on: February 03, 2015, 06:23:20 am »

Hello, back again after a longer absence...
I recently acquired a molded bottle representing a Fo dog with its puppy, sitting upright and covered with a blue glaze.
Looking at the literature (beginning with Moss' Snuff bottle review), I see that there are quite different molds; they are dated from JiaQing to the end of the 19th century. Does anybody have an idea about the criteria to date these molds more exactly?
Thanks for your help!
Georges


* DSCN7117.JPG (148.96 KB, 945x709 - viewed 45 times.)
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Joey
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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2015, 03:42:45 pm »

Dear Georges,
     I don't know how to date the molds, but that sure looks like a Jiaqing original to me.
But Giovanni is much better on porcelains, and Tom B., as well.
Best,
 Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2015, 04:38:52 pm »

I am on the run for the day, but when I return will have a look through a lengthy article about ceramic netsukes, which is what I believe this to be.. There may be something specific about the molds in the article..

Back later !
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George
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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2015, 08:47:59 pm »

Here are a few ceramic netsuke studies/articles that may have something about molds for these pieces.

Dr F.A. Turk, "A Study of Porcelain Netsuke" ( Apollo, June 1960 ), Dr T Volker, "Porcelain Netsuke" ( Far Eastern Ceramic Bulletin, Vol lll , No 4, Ser. No 16, December 1951 ). I do not have, but that is within the volume 6, 1976 Arts of Asia. Then there is, "Netsuke Familiar and Unfamiliar" ( Weatherhill, 1975 ) Raymond Bushell illustrates 28 specimens that are classified and provide a little elementary information, more towards problems involved in classifying ..

The article I am reading talks about the using types of clay. Hirado, Bizen, Kutani, Nabeshima, Seto or Oribe, in the same way blue and white wares of similar types produced can be differentiated by the quality of cobalt found in one country but not the other. Determining provenance for these ceramic netsuke can be the same as any other ceramic or porcelain pieces, where Firing, clay, glazes, etc.. are used. I can not find anything online or within this, "Ceramic Netsuke" article by Raymond Bushell, Arts of Asia, March/April 1976 issue that talk about the use of molds as being a method..

Which Snuff Bottle Review shows different molds Georges ? I would like to try and find a copy..

As I am reading through this article, there is really a whole lot of relevant information. Really the entire article is excellent reading and applies when trying to date these. It would be easier, if you would like to read it in it's entirety for me to take pics and send and or post it for you ..

Let me know and will be happy to copy for you.. 
 
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2015, 05:24:22 am »

Dear George,
    Why would you believe this to be a netsuke, when it seems to be a perfectly simple snuff bottle?  Huh
Best,
 Joey


I am on the run for the day, but when I return will have a look through a lengthy article about ceramic netsukes, which is what I believe this to be.. There may be something specific about the molds in the article..

Back later !
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2015, 06:09:13 am »

Here are some non snuff bottle, ceramic netsuke examples.. Just like ivory or other netsuke mediums, they also made snuff bottles in each medium.. In this example of Georges, I think it is a netsuke snuff bottle made in a ceramic medium. 


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Joey
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2015, 07:19:53 am »

Dear George,
     
      A netsuke needs two holes as a rule, to be functional. Are there any on this bottle?
And this is supposed to be Chinese, not Japanese.

  This reminds me of a joke:

   A Jew and a Chinese are sitting in a bar drinking. All of a sudden, the Jew gets up and punches the Chinese guy in the face.
    The Chinese says,"What did you do that for ?!"   
    The Jew responds,"That's for Pearl Harbor!"
    The Chinese replies,"Pearl Harbor?! That was the Japanese! I'm Chinese!"
    The Jew then says," Chinese/Japanese. What's the difference ?!"

  They have a few more drinks, and the Chinese gets up and punches the Jew!
    The Jew says,"What did you do that for ?!"   
    The  Chinese responds,"That's for the Titanic!"
    The Jew replies,"The Titanic?! That was an iceberg! I'm a Goldberg!"
    The Chinese then says," Iceberg/Goldberg. What's the difference ?!"

Best,
   Joey
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George
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2015, 07:49:55 am »

I know little about netsuke, but as a rule netsuke are meant to be worn, thus the two holes.. The exception within all the netsuke mediums would be snuff bottles.. Still considered netsuke.

As my guess for Georges piece is netsuke, then yes that would make it a Japanese netsuke bottle rather than Chinese.

 
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2015, 07:54:06 am »

Dear Georges,
my feeling about your bottle is that it is not new, it should have some age, but that only picture is not enough. Can you post some more picture? Back, front, bottom, hole? And in better focus.
Dear George, I will be surprised if this is a netsuke converted to bottle. The overall style looks Chinese to me.
Dear Joey, with us too there is the cliché that the Chinese are all alike (which obviously is not true).
From which the following joke:
A Chinese picks up a prostitute on the street and leads her to his house. Once in bed, the Chinese does what he must do and then he slips under the bed. After a few seconds he comes out and repeats the whole thing, even more ardently than before, and then returns under the bed. Then back out again, and so on, the story continues to repeat itself. After five or six times, the prostitute, wondering what the Chinese does under the bed to return more and more emboldened, taken by curiosity she does not resist peeking under the bed, and she find that there are fifteen Chinese under there.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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rosegl
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2015, 08:12:04 am »

Dear all,

I definitely think it is a snuff bottle, of a series well documented in the literature (I join a couple of examples). My problem is really the dating!

Giovanni: I join two more pictures from other angles (I will have to take more fotos, but I'm not at home)

Thanks for the discussion

Georges


* Fo Hund 1.jpg (92.91 KB, 450x600 - viewed 26 times.)

* Fo Hund 2.jpg (81.62 KB, 450x600 - viewed 22 times.)

* Fo Hund 3.jpg (77.87 KB, 450x600 - viewed 21 times.)

* Fo Hund Crane Collection.jpg (7.23 KB, 190x245 - viewed 27 times.)

* Fo Hund V&A Salting bequest.jpg (36.01 KB, 400x600 - viewed 22 times.)

* Fo Hund Soth LA 1984.jpeg (69.54 KB, 414x480 - viewed 22 times.)

* Fo Hund Bonhams Kopie.jpg (32.41 KB, 800x423 - viewed 25 times.)
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George
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2015, 08:14:31 am »


Dear George, I will be surprised if this is a netsuke converted to bottle. The overall style looks Chinese to me.


If it is netsuke in ceramic medium, then would not have been converted, it would have been originally made as a snuff bottle..

I could be completely wrong about this being netsuke, and certainly will go along with you, Joey, and others with more expertise..  
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2015, 08:42:23 am »

Dear George,
I am not expert on netsuke, but I suppose that all netsuke must have the two holes on the back, or not? If there are no holes, then it should not be meant as netsuke.
Dear Georges, by the new pictures I must say that it is a strange piece. That type of red, unless the color rendition of the picture is completely off, is far from Chinese palette. And that flaking off blue enamel…..hmmm, very strange. At this point, considering my ignorance on Japanese ware, I tend to think that your bottle could be Japanese, because it is off from Chinese standards as I see it.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2015, 09:13:38 am »

I think you guys are all correct.. I have been barking like a foo dog, but up the wrong tree !

It does make perfect sense to me now that any snuff bottle in any medium, including those made of the same material as netsuke, that it would in fact simply be a snuff bottle..

Apologies ! 

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« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2015, 10:28:14 am »


Georges,

With the examples you've provided you may be on the way to answering your own question on dating.  It appears to me that key here is to match it up your bottle to the "mold" in which other examples were made.   It is obvious the the 'Fo Hound Soth LA 1984' bottle is quite different from the others, so it can be eliminated as a possible mold source.  Now it is just a matter of comparing the fine details in the shape of your bottle with other known dated examples that could have originated from the same or a sister mold. 

Charll
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rosegl
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« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2015, 01:08:17 pm »

Thanks Charli, that's what I'll do. There are a few more examples recorded in the literature. I'm quite skeptical about the "Japanese theory"...

Regards

Georges
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« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2015, 02:47:31 pm »

Dear Georges,
   I think we've all gone off the "Japanese theory".  Wink
There are a bunch like yours in Hugh Moss' Chinese Snuff-Bottles #5 (hardcovered), in an article on molded and enamelled snuff bottles.  And of course, you've illustrated a number from Bloch, etc.
I can't tell really without holding it, but I'm pretty sure it is a Jiaqing period mold.
Best,
  Joey


Thanks Charli, that's what I'll do. There are a few more examples recorded in the literature. I'm quite skeptical about the "Japanese theory"...

Regards

Georges
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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2015, 06:19:10 pm »

Dear Joey,
I am not discarding the Japanese origin yet.
Dear Charll, please look at the second picture posted by Georges on #9. Look at the red in the rice pattern. I have never seen that in a Chinese piece. And look at the flaking blue enamel. Also that is very very strange, because it is not an over-glaze enamel, it seems on the biscuit to me. And somehow the green too is a bit strange. Hmmm….I don’t know.
Giovanni
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2015, 05:09:21 am »

Dear Giovanni,
    Could it be a modern Chinese fake, with someone making a mold from a genuine Jiaqing bottle, then reproducing it and enamelling it to fake a late 18th/early 19th C. original, but not knowing the correct enamels for the period he's trying to fake?
    I ask because I once bought a genuine limestone ossuary (2000 year old 'bone box' for secondary burial, a Jewish custom 2000 years ago) from an Arab, who'd stolen the plain piece from a Jewish burial cave somewhere. To raise the value of the plain, undecorated ossuary (whoever visits me in Ireland can see a genuine decorated example in my library, sans contents of course!  Grin), he incised 'Jewish' designs on the sides; but he used modern copies of ancient designs, which are obviously wrong and anachronistic,
and I explained to him his mistake, and paid less than I would have if he'd just left it alone.

   Could this be something similar, but more sophisticated (after all, we are talking a Chinese VS. an Arab;
A Chinese 'moron' would be able to out-think most Arab 'geniuses'  - Me bad.  Huh  Roll Eyes  )   ?

Best,
   Joey



Dear Joey,
I am not discarding the Japanese origin yet.
Dear Charll, please look at the second picture posted by Georges on #9. Look at the red in the rice pattern. I have never seen that in a Chinese piece. And look at the flaking blue enamel. Also that is very very strange, because it is not an over-glaze enamel, it seems on the biscuit to me. And somehow the green too is a bit strange. Hmmm….I don’t know.
Giovanni

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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2015, 06:29:51 am »

Dear Joey,
I don't think that the problems that I see belongs from a bad attempt to copy an original, but from a different working/material process than we usually see in Chinese ceramic.
The blue enamel clearly has a tendence to flaking, the borders of it clearly shows that. It is not matter of wearing. Where the blue has been lost, it seems to me that there is no transparent glaze below it. Georges, can you confirm that in those places there is no glaze? Can you feel or see the bare biscuit there? If so, then the piece is really strange.
Kind regards
Giovanni
 
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rosegl
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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2015, 05:23:37 pm »

Giovanni and Joey: five observations
- the bottle it resembles most is the one in the Crane collection: the form is ± the same, the details are very similar, however the colors differ (but resemble a similar bottle sold at Bonhams)
- it is clearly a white glazed base (not biscuit) decorated in polychrome enamels
- where it is worn, the white glaze appears
- as can be seen better in the attached enlargement, the blue glaze is not in a good condition, but has kind of little wholes all over the body, a similar deterioration can be seen around the mouth
- it could be that the the part under the muzzle has been replenished (other colour + original email gleaming through the little hole)
Is that helpful?
Regards
Georges


* Fo Hund 5.jpg (99.36 KB, 553x652 - viewed 17 times.)
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