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Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 28, 2024, 07:33:36 am
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Is it some type of the jade family?

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Author Topic: Is it some type of the jade family?  (Read 1681 times)
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David
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« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2015, 01:21:52 pm »

Quote
Nephrite jade, which is also a product of metamorphism (and fluid infiltration), does not apparently require the very special P-T conditions of jadeite and is much more widespread. It is also found in association with serpentinite in all known localities.

Quote from Quote, I did not red properly.

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« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2015, 11:25:01 pm »

Hello Charll,

The following link is the one that I was talking about. It is a pretty good read.

http://www.cigem.ca/431.html

I read your article again, thank you, it is a very technical one. Do you have access or use the equipments (aside from the X-ray diffraction, as it is extremely expensive) mentioned to test your jades or minerals?

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David
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« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2015, 11:56:32 pm »

Thank you David,

I just skimmed quickly through the article in your link. The size of the reference list at the end is as impressive as the article itself!

Interestingly, I had always thought the jade used in Meso-America by the Inca, Aztecs, Olmec and Maya was nephrite, not jadeite.

Tom
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« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2015, 12:05:41 am »


I came across a link to a 1982 jade article "The Jade Enigma" which I download and still need to read.  It appears to be informative on jade and some of the common minerals it can be confused with, so I've attached the link below if you wish to check it out  yourself.


Charll,

An excellent article, and reasonably easy to follow, despite being fairly technical. Thanks for pointing it out.

Tom
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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2015, 01:54:24 am »

Thank you Charll and David for the two interesting links.
I may be wrong, but even if I could do it, I think that it should be useless to submit a bottle like my one to laboratory tests, including the simple hardness test. In fact (again, I may be wrong being ignorant on mineralogy) I suppose that a not uniform mineral like this one should have different properties depending on which point the tests are performed. Has the celadon areas the same properties of the greenish areas or the russet ones? I don't know.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2015, 02:52:46 am »

Dear Giovanni,

You have made a very good point. In fact, I did not tell the full story of my visit to the gemological institute 20 years ago. They said they thought my bottle may be a jade conglomerate (a composition of more than one mineral). This being the case, they would need to chip off test samples from various parts of the bottle.

So the test would have been truly 'destructive', in every sense!  Sad

Tom
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« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2015, 03:00:06 am »

Dear Tom,

Maybe testing method have changed.   Smiley

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« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2015, 03:10:36 am »

Dear YT,

I believe you are right. Testing methods have become much more sophisticated in the last 2 decades (and more expensive!). A spectrometer element analysis can be used nowadays to determine most minerals and stones, which I understand is non-destructive.

This is a super-expensive piece of equipment, and testing labs need to recoup the investment by charging for its use accordingly. Unless you are fortunate enough to have a friend at a large university which has one....  Cool

Tom
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2015, 08:35:48 am »

Dear Guys,
    Yup, a spectrometer analysis is VERY expensive. I had to pay for one to check an object found at the dig I was funding in Israel, and it was over US$1,200 !
Best,
  Joey





Dear YT,

I believe you are right. Testing methods have become much more sophisticated in the last 2 decades (and more expensive!). A spectrometer element analysis can be used nowadays to determine most minerals and stones, which I understand is non-destructive.

This is a super-expensive piece of equipment, and testing labs need to recoup the investment by charging for its use accordingly. Unless you are fortunate enough to have a friend at a large university which has one....  Cool

Tom
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« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2015, 10:46:10 am »

Dear Giovanni,

Even if it is a Jade/Bowenite/Serpentine bottle, I still think the shape looks good. And if the work is imperial quality (I can not judge, so will leave to others), it really might be a 3rd/4th ranked prince or titled official's. Because in the old time, it is still jade.

And not kidding, little snakes are also nicknamed little dragons. While the dragon robes of a higher ranked princes are call Mang-Pao (4 clawed Dragon, but also the first character for large snake).  So, it is still within reasons that a serpentine looking interface jade will be treasured because it does looks like snake skin.

So, still congrats!   Grin

David
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« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2015, 11:00:12 am »

Dear Tom,

You're welcome, I also enjoyed reading it back then. It was very well written, and intelligently integrated/quoted.

 Cheesy I thought the same thing too that S. American Jade are nephrite, so was quite surprised by Omphacite and their kind of Jadeite. So, did some reading a while back.

I also read somewhere that the Chinese/Taiwanese are buying up these ugly looking jadeite and derivatives and processing them to make the cheap "jadeite" that are flooding the market. But, they look very unnatural.

I saw some so called top grade Guatelama jade in a honest shop once, it is priced at 1/20th or so of a Burma Jadeite of similar color (pea green and deep lavender). But, it just looks so dirty with it's "snow flake" inclusions and a lot of fissures. Also, looking online and that shop, the Guatelama jade looks lifeless for some reason.

Warmly,
David
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« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2015, 04:18:54 pm »

Dear David,
it is far for being Imperial, I think!
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2015, 10:58:43 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

Can the spoon be original? It is curvy like a snake and goes pretty well with the bottle's exterior look.


Dear Joey and Tom,

I would like to understand how you dated this bottle. Is it based on shape and polish? Does material have anything to do with it?

I was thinking, if this was made from a cut off from a rough (when they were trying to get to the good part that looks pure jade), this will free the constraint from dating this to the period where jade is limited. Then since it is not imperial, then it might be made at any time for a rich merchant or official... then what might be the range of this bottle?

Very very curiously,  Cheesy
David
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« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2015, 02:38:33 am »


I would like to understand how you dated this bottle. Is it based on shape and polish? Does material have anything to do with it?


Dear Curious David,

That is a very valid question! Unfortunately, there is no short answer I can offer you (maybe Joey can). It is certainly a lot trickier to date plain stone bottles where there is no decorative carving. My assessment of its age comes from many years of looking at hundreds, or rather thousands, of similar plain bottles. One develops a kind of sixth sense for distinguishing genuine old bottles from later copies, based on weighing up all the visual features. The one BIG feature which is missing in this case is the tactile one - the way the bottle feels and handles is an essential part of the evaluation, as Joey always says.   

To explain how and what to look for is no easy task. Coincidentally, as I get asked this question often, I am compiling a handbook on exactly this topic at the moment.

Tom
PS: By the way, I never suggested that Giovanni's bottle might be imperial. I do not consider it to be so.
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« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2015, 11:46:29 am »

Dear Tom,

Thank you for taking the time to explain that, I was wondering why Joey and you can tell a date range from these kind of plain bottle that are not in the top class.  Smiley

Speaking of Imperial, what is the general definition for snuff bottle collectors?

Is it limited to Emperor, direct Emperor blood/Empress & consorts/ Empress side elders? Or for anything prepared for royalty (including 4th ranked princes), and the top 3 titled elite officials/scholars class?

Or is it a certain level of workmanship, plus the similarity to other known pieces found in the Palace Museums or documented by Qing dynasty scholars/official?

I would love to read your handbook when it is available.

Grateful,  Wink Grin  still very curious,
David
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« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2015, 06:25:09 pm »

Dear David,
    I agree with Tom in how I identify a plain bottle (where you see a generic shape, I see nuances that help me visually identify a genuine early (ca. 1700-1880) bottle from something made for tourists or to deceive (ca.1880-2015).
   As well, I agree that it is not Imperial, just because it, while undoubtedly genuine to the period, doesn't have the intrinsic elegance I identify with Imperial wares.
   By Imperial, I personally mean ANYTHING made for the Imperial household (including for the eunuchs), since everything surrounding 'the Son of Heaven' had to have a certain ritual purity.
There was a reason 'The Forbidden City' was forbidden to most people. Wink Cheesy
Best,
 Joey


Dear Tom,

Thank you for taking the time to explain that, I was wondering why Joey and you can tell a date range from these kind of plain bottle that are not in the top class.  Smiley

Speaking of Imperial, what is the general definition for snuff bottle collectors?

Is it limited to Emperor, direct Emperor blood/Empress & consorts/ Empress side elders? Or for anything prepared for royalty (including 4th ranked princes), and the top 3 titled elite officials/scholars class?

Or is it a certain level of workmanship, plus the similarity to other known pieces found in the Palace Museums or documented by Qing dynasty scholars/official?

I would love to read your handbook when it is available.

Grateful,  Wink Grin  still very curious,
David
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« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2015, 06:39:35 pm »


   As well, I agree that it is not Imperial, just because it, while undoubtedly genuine to the period, doesn't have the intrinsic elegance I identify with Imperial wares.
   By Imperial, I personally mean ANYTHING made for the Imperial household (including for the eunuchs), since everything surrounding 'the Son of Heaven' had to have a certain ritual purity.
There was a reason 'The Forbidden City' was forbidden to most people. Wink Cheesy
Best,
 Joey



Dear Joey,

By Imperial, Can we also explain as any bottles produced under the production of the 27 Palace workshops, Canton Enamel workshops, YangZhou Enamel workshops, XiaFanZuo workshop(Tibetan), Hindustani Jade workshop and JingDe Zhen Imperial kilns?

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2015, 07:34:05 pm »

Dear YT,
    Definitely! As well, Imperial wares were sometimes given by the Emperor as a mark of Imperial favour.
    But, in the case of Imperial Yellow objects  (in snuff bottles, or otherwise), as well as other objects and materials ordinarily restricted  by Sumptuary Laws to the Emperor, I once read that an Emperor bankrupted someone by giving him  three 'restricted' objects, and the recipient had to hire 6 men to go 50 metres ahead and another  6 to be fifty metres behind.
   Each 'pair' consisted of a man holding an Imperial permit allowing the commoner/aristocrat permission to possess the object, escorted by an official crier to publicly repeat the Imperial permission for each of the 'restricted' Imperial objects. According to what I read, the 'lucky recipient' was bankrupted within a few months.
   Best
Joey
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« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2015, 08:04:30 pm »

Dear YT,
    Definitely! As well, Imperial wares were sometimes given by the Emperor as a mark of Imperial favour.
    But, in the case of Imperial Yellow objects  (in snuff bottles, or otherwise), as well as other objects and materials ordinarily restricted  by Sumptuary Laws to the Emperor, I once read that an Emperor bankrupted someone by giving him  three 'restricted' objects, and the recipient had to hire 6 men to go 50 metres ahead and another  6 to be fifty metres behind.
   Each 'pair' consisted of a man holding an Imperial permit allowing the commoner/aristocrat permission to possess the object, escorted by an official crier to publicly repeat the Imperial permission for each of the 'restricted' Imperial objects. According to what I read, the 'lucky recipient' was bankrupted within a few months.
   Best
Joey

Dear Joey,

The royal favour that comes with a twist.
A sad ending although he can choose to be beheaded if he lose the imperial object.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2015, 08:10:59 pm »

Dear Joey,

In Thailand white elephants do the same thing. Anyone honoured with a gift of one of these pachyderms must have extremely deep pockets if he is not to be bankrupted in maintaining it.

Tom
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