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Archaic Chinese Script Designs

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Wattana
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« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2015, 01:16:47 am »

Thanks David,

Your comments noted!
I re-checked, and you are right - there is unfortunately no hardback version. I was mixing it up with 'Four Thousand Years of Chinese Calligraphy', which is a very large hardback book, also mentioned in this thread, which I am also considering buying.
Regards,
Tom
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« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2015, 07:08:06 am »

Hi All :

Actually I do have a old/small dictionary that sort of translate the present Chinese words into various form of olden writing.....although  going from modern to old is easy.... going the other direction is NOT....

Anyway.... I would think that the best thing to do is to appreciate the words and calligraphy as an art form.... bec most likely, even if you can figure all the words out perfectly.... know how to read each one of them....but when put together, most (or should I say even 90% of the Chinese) have no idea what the message/meaning is........

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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2015, 09:42:13 pm »

Quote
So, although the character by character translate do not make sense to some experts (like Moss or an archaic script expert), it is possible that if you give the translate to a Chinese scholar that have the background to draw on, it will actually tell you a whole story that makes sense.

David, the above statement is sort of what I expected. My only hope may be that it is an actual copy of a documented and transcribed rubbing.  I really appreciate the insight provided by you and others that have made comments.

Mahalo from the Big Island of Hawaii.  Got to get back to the sun and fun,  Grin  Charll   
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« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2015, 11:19:04 pm »

Hello Charll,

You're welcome, I will still go back to it from time to time as it is interesting. Maybe take one character each week and see what I can figure out. One side is pretty close, and the other have 2-3 seal scripts that I have some guesses but need to confirm somehow.

If I come up with something reasonable, I will let you know.

Enjoy the sun, Best Regards.
David
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« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2015, 11:09:08 am »

Hello Tom and George,

Chinese Characters: Their Origin, Etymology, History, Classification, and Signification: A Thorough Study from Chinese Documents
by Weiger, L. It is 832 pages, and is supposedly based/interpreted from a key ancient chinese book first printed in 987 on explaining seal script, and have both hardcover and paperback.

Might be an interesting book for people who do not read Chinese and wants to learn seal script. Will let you know after I get it and have a chance to skim it.

Kind Regards,
David
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Wattana
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« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2015, 08:53:27 pm »

Thanks David,

It sounds interesting. I will wait to read your 'review' of it.

I have a small book aimed at non-Chinese readers by Tan Huay Peng. It's called Fun with Chinese Characters: Volume 1. Infini Press, Singapore, 2004. While it is highly entertaining and not intended as a scholarly work, it actually shows how modern Chinese characters derive from their archaic origins.

All best,
Tom
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« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2015, 01:12:52 am »

Hello Tom,

Will let you know after it comes. I am still waiting for the seller to ship it, can't wait to see it  Grin

Best Regards,
David
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« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2015, 06:29:45 pm »

Hello Charll,

As I am limited in writing Chinese characters, I also looked around for a book that can help decode these older scripts.

"The Origins of Chinese Characters by Wang Hongyuan is very good in my opinion. I purchased the 1997 version (3rd edition), as I think these kind of work -translating archaic character- tends to be filled with errors, so the latter the better. (Unfortunately, I can not find any later version then this, nor did I come across a better one that is also in english). I imagine this book is not that popular in english.

There are about 200 pages, each with 3-4 characters.

It is basically a mapping of Oracle script to Bronze, Ancient, Seal and modern (complex) scripts arranged by category (man, nature, crafts, etc...). And it also have english meaning, but a little cryptic and sometimes do not make sense.

Best Regards
David


My copy came in the mail today David..

This is a really nice reference... Thanks again for sharing it !
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« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2015, 12:13:39 am »

Dear George,

You're welcome.

The following "dictionary" for seal script (simplified chinese to seal script) is not useful:
Dictionary of seal script - newly edited seal script collection (Chinese Edition) (Chinese) Paperback – August
by Zhou Cheng Hua

It uses abc pinyin to organize the words, not radicals (or maybe this is how Mainland China organize dictionaries now?). Makes it useless even if I can figure out a possible radical for a script word.

The character set is very limited for a "dictionary", It has big print and filler words (bronze scripts, oracle scripts) instead of solely focusing on different variants of seal script as it's title says. Most disappointing is that it does not even include commonly used words like generations, age, ru-yi, etc...

Do you know of a good seal script dictionary to simplified or complex Chinese character organized by radical?

Kindly,
David
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« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2015, 01:09:53 am »

Dear George,

No worries, when I next visit Taiwan in summer, I will preview and pick up a good copy.

I checked Amazon and a few others, but they are all published in China with simplified to Seal. So, I assume not radical based.

Kindly,
David
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« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2015, 03:52:52 am »



The character set is very limited for a "dictionary", It has big print and filler words (bronze scripts, oracle scripts) instead of solely focusing on different variants of seal script as it's title says. Most disappointing is that it does not even include commonly used words like generations, age, ru-yi, etc...



Most of the archaic discussion is a bit over my head, but is it not correct that commonly used words can not be used for earliest archaic symbols because they are more thought of as designs ? Not an actual language that can be put into sentences .. At least that of the earliest archaic designs, until signs, designs and pictures crossed paths and were accompanied by the new element, "legible characters" resulting the the first verbs .

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2512.msg32539.html#msg32539
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« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2015, 01:53:10 pm »

Dear George,

 Cheesy I think I wrote that in the first place, but that is in reference to Oracle scripts (or Bird/insect/animal scripts) on bones, shells, turtle carapace or Bronze scripts. Those are ceremonial, ritual, future divining, talismanic or powerful decorative.

The ancient scripts are used more like titles or very condensed sentence (that carries the meaning of a full story). They are very local in nature,.... kind of like... Huh

Hard to explain, like a large tribe of indians or a bunch of small fiefdoms, they share common spoken language (or similar or dialects) and close cultures across the different ones, but each has their own way of writing or interpretation. But within each of them, their ancient script will have a much larger set of words (that will include some commonly used words) then Oracle or Bronze script.

Since it is a small area, most of the stories, legends, backgrounds etc... are know amongst them. But, it is a simple written language set already.

Can you imagine trying to communicate by writing when every little fiefdoms have a different way of writing a word? Or to learn/read a great book from a fief 5 neighbors down?

Then as we proceed to the Spring Autumn/Waring States time state rulers + minor rulers, each taking over other states and "enforcing" their script. Then Qin Shi Huang took over and did what all the other victors did.

So, seal script was developed (more like Qin forced all other countries to use the Qin script). Any words not in Qin set was then added to. Any "foreign" duplicated word is discarded.

Seal script is the upper class script for Qin (used by officials, scholars, upper) and it has to be able to convey the necessary common information. So, I expect a dictionary titled seal script dictionary to be able to do that. There should be 3000+ characters in this set, I am sure some are lost over the ages, but I expect more than what was in this book (and a lot of the mapped "seal" words in this book looks more like ancient then Seal to me, plus the author's tendency to throw in oracle and bronze as fillers... really makes me question how reliable is this book).

During Qin time (before and after uniting China), there is also the early clerical script. This was considered a commoner's character set, as it is easier to write (more straight lines) but not as nice/formal/powerful looking. The Han dynasty used clerical script for most writing and seal script only for very formal writings, titles, learned scholars, seals.

The better books from China with more reputable publishers have 1000+ pages, and price to match. This one is just 20+ dollars, and it became free when I wanted to sent it back to Amazon with a complaint regarding misleading title.

Kindly,
David
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« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2015, 05:08:37 pm »

Thank you so much for this easy to follow explanation David ..  Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2015, 12:53:45 am »

Welcome, and please take it with a grain of salt.  Wink I simplified a lot from what I read or heard here and there.

Warmly,
David
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2015, 06:29:00 pm »

Dear David,
     Your explanations about archaic and seal scripts are very easy to follow, and explain a lot.
Thank you!

  Enlightened,
      Joey    Wink
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« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2015, 08:58:08 pm »

Dear Joey,

You're welcome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuowen_Jiezi
Above is a wiki link to a key work that explains seal script.

Bashfully... slight, in good humor  Cheesy
David
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« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2015, 05:02:41 pm »

Dear David,
     I need to see which books on calligraphy I have in my Irish library. I ordered 2 copies of 'Chinese Art' by Patricia B. Welch, one for Jerusalem and the other for Ireland. When it arrived I realised I already had a copy in Jerusalem, and may already have a copy in Ireland!
     I'm going to see if the Israel Museum library needs my spare copy of 'Chinese Art'. If so, I'll give it to them.
    I re-read this thread and it is wonderful. Thank you to all who contributed.
Best,
   Joey
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« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2015, 11:56:52 pm »

Dear Joey,

You're welcome.

Warmly,
David
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