About This Forum

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 28, 2024, 05:49:42 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Contact Login Register  

Archaic Chinese Script Designs

Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: Archaic Chinese Script Designs  (Read 3873 times)
0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.
David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2015, 01:14:12 am »

Hi Steven,

Thank you!

How do you translate bronze script? Is there a computer program that can help narrow it down?

Thinking back on the amount of countries/factions, and the different areas in those times, I will not be surprised if there are hundred of variant for a single bronze character.

The book I have, I think is good to satisfy my curiosity, but at 600-800 words I think is too limited to help do a full translation. It also focus more on oracle script (so if a word is not used in oracle script, it is skipped) and it only documents words that helps in understanding the pictograph basic of the chinese written language.

Lastly, I recall hearing somewhere in the past that older scripts will take multiple character to form a meaning. And a character by character translate (what I am doing) from oracle/bronze to modern Chinese will lose this combination meaning.

Warmly,
David
Report Spam   Logged

David

OIB
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 1273



« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2015, 06:16:59 am »

YT,

I don't think the script should be read in the orientation as suggested by George.
Based on your your original picture of looking at the script horizontally, it appears to be showing the Chinese characters ( 刻印 ) which means ' engrave '.

George,

Horizontal inscription of Chinese words are mostly applied to flattened base, I believe.

Inn Bok
Report Spam   Logged

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2015, 01:40:07 pm »

Hello Inn Bok and YT,

The first character in the vertical orientation, have the condensed radical for grass in the correct position at the top.

Then I think the bottom portion can be translated as zhi 之 (taking the example from Charll's bottle), put together I believe it means zhi 芝 as in LingZhi 靈芝 (the medicinal fungus). By itself 芝,  can mean the fungus or it can also mean a kind of sweet grass herb found in the forest.

I recall that 芝蘭, (Zhi and Orchids) means true friend or noble character, when Zhi is used as the grass herb. I searched and found out that zhi smells sweet and true in the depth of the forest whether or not anyone is there to enjoy, while orchid smells great for people to enjoy. So, a noble person or true friend, "smells" good/true whether by himself in a forest or around people.

Unfortunately, I do not know what is the 2nd character as it is not in the book I have (nor is the 1st character). And I don't know how to translate it by radicals or part.

But, if I were to make a wild guess, then I think it is fat 胖. If I assume the left is the radical for meat or moon 月, while the right is representation of cutting in half 半.

 Cheesy So, going blindly, my best guess is "lots of true friend" or if this is a gift from father to daughter (zhi can be a female name) then hope she stays fat (wealthy and taken care of).

Or, to have an abundance of things comes true (zhi as lingzhi and fat as a lot).

My 2 cents,
David
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 01:44:06 pm by David » Report Spam   Logged

David

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2015, 04:29:15 pm »

Hello Charll,

Only one more word came out from the rest of the 2nd flipping.

2nd side
First column 2nd character, it is Zha 乍, page 129, means firstly or abruptly.

I think this is close to the best I can do with this book by matching as much as the character as possible. Keeping in mind that the ones I mention" look like" are a little off while the ones I mention "is" are close to 100% match.

If I have spare time in the future, I might try to break the unknown words down and try to match the radicals or subpart, then guess at a possible word. But, no promises as that is quite tedious and no guarantee that radical/parts combined is the actual word inscribed.

Best regards,
David

Report Spam   Logged

David

Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11282


« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2015, 06:20:50 pm »

Dear David,
    I'm really impressed by your ability to analyze the Zhuanshu calligraphy. I translate Zhuanshu as 'Archaic script' calligraphy. Do you translate it as 'Bronze' characters?
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2015, 09:31:20 pm »

Dear Joey,

Thank you  Grin, you are too kind. I am just matching what was on Charll's bottle to what are on the book. But, for the 2nd pass I tried to be more intelligent by figuring out what category the word shape is like and then focus on those sections in the book. If I do a 3rd pass, then I will try to match the radicals.

Please keep in mind, I am "learning now selling now" from the book. Prior to getting interest in snuff bottles, I never had an interest in scripts except for the calligraphy that my mother side's Grandfather had.

There are 4 category:

1) Shell and bone characters or Oracle scripts from the bones and shells (use by Shang and prior)

2) Bronze script found on bronze vessels or items. (Note: timeframe of this script overlaps with oracle scripts, used by Shang and Zhou. )

3) Ancient script, found on bamboo, stone, pottery etc... used in warring States period

4) Seal script, decorative character used in Qin (221 BC), the 1st standardize character set by Li Si ordered by Qin Shi Huang. (Looking at all the variants in the other 3 forms... it is great he thought of that)

Zhuanshu is seal script from the Qin Dynasty (221 bc).

Basically, Bronze script, Ancient script, and Seal script can all be found on the old items including bronze. So, all 3 can be called archaic I suppose.

I believe Charll's bottle is Bronze script, with seal script mixed in. Either the inscriber do not know the full bronze script set or there are words that are just not used in bronze script. (like for example, paper or write .... which are not invented then).

I think YT's jade bottle is seal script. I took the liberty of mapping radicals and subpart from bronze script. Once you have a chance to read the book, you will see that some radicals and sub part carries over from oracle script all the way to seal script and some to modern complex Chinese character (The simplified version is too different and does not flow well from seal script, it is a shame).

The author of this book uses simplified chinese for foreword and post, but he use modern complex chinese to do the mapping.

Warmly,
David
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 09:34:23 pm by David » Report Spam   Logged

David

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2015, 09:46:18 pm »

This is the 10 volume set that was referred to on some sites:
http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Chinese-bronzes-CHEN-PEI/dp/7532635449/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420343056&sr=1-3

I think the price is a rip-off, and if someone buys it in Taiwan or China, I don't think it will be that expensive.
David
Report Spam   Logged

David

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11350


Test


WWW
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2015, 12:17:05 am »


"The Origins of Chinese Characters by Wang Hongyuan is very good in my opinion.




Thank you for this reference David.. I just ordered it and look forward to getting it ..
Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

Snuff Bottle Journal
YT
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 1622



« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2015, 12:30:02 am »

Dear David and Inn Bok,

Thank you for the great input. I agree with David that it is Seal Script and will try to find more info.

Cheers,
YT
Report Spam   Logged

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2015, 01:28:10 am »

You're welcome George, it is a really neat work and a steal compared to the full dictionary. I only wished he made a more exhaustive version.

Dear YT,

Please let me know if you find the correct translate, I will be curious to see if I am even in the ballpark.

Kind Regards,
David
Report Spam   Logged

David

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 6133



« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2015, 08:24:49 am »

Hi All,

Firstly, thanks Charll, for starting this discussion by posting a most interesting bottle.

Secondly, thanks David, for attempting to decipher the meaning of the inscriptions.

I have been following this thread with great interest. I am out of my depth here, as I cannot read Chinese script, either archaic, seal or otherwise. There was an in-depth article in the JICSBS (Part 1: Autumn 2013; Part 2: Autumn 2014) by Hugh Moss and Stuart Sargent, on Coconut Shell Snuff Bottles. A large proportion of these bottles have archaic script. Interestingly, the carved characters appear to have been largely copied verbatim from 16th and 17th century books, themselves copied from even earlier documents and ancient bronze vessels no longer extant. It seems probable that the bottle carvers did not fully understand the meanings of the characters they were copying, as they occasionally used artistic license to make small changes to the script.

I am recounting this from memory, and would have to re-read the article to be more specific. But is is plausible that the creator of Charll's porcelain bottle also includes a few unintelligible characters.

Tom   
Report Spam   Logged

Collecting since 1971

Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11282


« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2015, 10:10:33 am »

Dear David,
    Your explanation of the different archaic styles was wonderful.
I now understand that to say 'Archaic' script, is sort of like asking "how long is a piece of string"?  Wink   Grin
    I will still use the term 'Zhuanshu', but specify my meaning more exactly.
Thank you,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11282


« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2015, 10:12:56 am »

Dear Charll,
    I must apologise. I thanked David for his contribution, but forgot to thank you for yours. You always ask the most useful questions, and after you have obviously already  thought things out thoroughly.
Thank you,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2015, 05:38:53 pm »

Dear Joey,

You're welcome.

Warmly,
David
Report Spam   Logged

David

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2015, 06:25:17 pm »

Hello Tom,

Considering the number of large and small states in the past before Qin (and after, I am sure standard seal script does not become fully used in one generation), it will be no surprise to me that any translation works or dictionary are filled with guesses and errors. And I think impossible to be complete.

My feeling is that Charll's bottle's inscriber did a very good job, but my single book of 600-800 words is too limited to translate it properly. The characters that have exact or very good match are quite correctly copied, especially when you consider the medium he has to work with (a brittle glaze, which is why I assume that it will be more linear and less of the lifting draws or complicated strokes that narrows and turns or continuous crossing a line).

Those characters that matches are only a little off, and they look nicely done. There is a spacing rule that is very hard to maintain by people that are not good in calligraphy. This one is done nicely, between each word and it's 7 neighbors (one offset row).

And if I recall correctly from hearing my elders talk, bronze and ancient script are very condensed/cryptic and people in the past who reads them are very intelligent and knowledgable. So, a simple 2-4 word group can convey a 1 page story of meaning. Like for example, the "Burning Bush" for Jewish or Catholic religion, it has a very deep set of meaning. But for someone that do not know of these Religions, then it just means a single character "fire" or "burning".

So, although the character by character translate do not make sense to some experts (like Moss or an archaic script expert), it is possible that if you give the translate to a Chinese scholar that have the background to draw on, it will actually tell you a whole story that makes sense.

Best Regards,
David

Report Spam   Logged

David

YT
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 1622



« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2015, 07:54:52 pm »

Hello Tom,

Considering the number of large and small states in the past before Qin (and after, I am sure standard seal script does not become fully used in one generation), it will be no surprise to me that any translation works or dictionary are filled with guesses and errors. And I think impossible to be complete.

My feeling is that Charll's bottle's inscriber did a very good job, but my single book of 600-800 words is too limited to translate it properly. The characters that have exact or very good match are quite correctly copied, especially when you consider the medium he has to work with (a brittle glaze, which is why I assume that it will be more linear and less of the lifting draws or complicated strokes that narrows and turns or continuous crossing a line).

Those characters that matches are only a little off, and they look nicely done. There is a spacing rule that is very hard to maintain by people that are not good in calligraphy. This one is done nicely, between each word and it's 7 neighbors (one offset row).

And if I recall correctly from hearing my elders talk, bronze and ancient script are very condensed/cryptic and people in the past who reads them are very intelligent and knowledgable. So, a simple 2-4 word group can convey a 1 page story of meaning. Like for example, the "Burning Bush" for Jewish or Catholic religion, it has a very deep set of meaning. But for someone that do not know of these Religions, then it just means a single character "fire" or "burning".

So, although the character by character translate do not make sense to some experts (like Moss or an archaic script expert), it is possible that if you give the translate to a Chinese scholar that have the background to draw on, it will actually tell you a whole story that makes sense.

Best Regards,
David
Dear David,

Well explained!!
Thank you.

Cheers,
YT
Report Spam   Logged

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 6133



« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2015, 09:16:07 pm »

Yes YT, I totally agree with you.

Thank you David for explaining it so well!

Tom
Report Spam   Logged

Collecting since 1971

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2015, 11:59:58 pm »

You're both welcome.

Thank you Charll for sharing this interesting bottle. If you have a real expert translate it in the future, please let me know the results.

Best Regards,
David
Report Spam   Logged

David

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 6133



« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2015, 12:40:05 am »


"The Origins of Chinese Characters by Wang Hongyuan is very good in my opinion.




Thank you for this reference David.. I just ordered it and look forward to getting it ..

David,

I am going to order this book too. Do you recommend getting the hardback, or are the pages of the paperback version properly stitched so they don't fall out?

Tom
Report Spam   Logged

Collecting since 1971

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2015, 12:57:39 am »

Hello Tom,

My copy is a paperback 3rd edition, and it is stitched with 4 threads. (I think it was under 10 dollar including shipping)

I don't recall seeing a hardback, but I did ordered another used paperback (not sure which edition) one (also under 10 dollars) as a backup after seeing how much damage it took from flipping through it twice plus reading once.

Best Regards,
David
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 12:59:45 am by David » Report Spam   Logged

David

Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal