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Fake Photo Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles

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Author Topic: Fake Photo Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles  (Read 14978 times)
George
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« Reply #120 on: May 25, 2014, 01:17:40 pm »



But  you will   notice  one   crucial   difference  :  given that the   real-painted  bottle  is   a  correct   copy  of the  actual painting,  the  photo-faked  bottle  is   right-left hand  reversed !

So obviously,  in the  photo-faking  process the  "handed-ness"  of the  picture   gets   reversed

Very  interesting...........   !



That is very interesting indeed !

I do not know if the original painting shows that same unusual little dark spot on her hand.. But interesting that even that same dark spot is on the fake as the bottle you saw in Hengshui..

Good observation Peter !
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rosegl
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« Reply #121 on: May 28, 2014, 08:48:44 am »

Hello George,

a fascinating story!
May I ask an additional question: Are there other ways than photographs to multiply a bottle? In 1981, I bought an IPB with the faces of two sages. Since then, I found various similar bottles - sometimes from famous artists, sometimes unsigned - and I wonder if they were duplicated in workshops, maybe by students. Here are pictures of my examples. 

Thanks for any information.

Georges


* SB 128.jpg (133.82 KB, 750x1000 - viewed 23 times.)

* SB 128a.jpg (164.82 KB, 635x1000 - viewed 23 times.)
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Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« Reply #122 on: May 28, 2014, 11:10:36 am »

Hi  Georges

My  own  conclusion  based  on  over 10,000  bottle  images   from the past  50  years   in my data  base  is that,  up until   the  mid-1990's ,  80 - 90 %  of  bottles   were  copied   from  one or  other   classical   Chinese  or  Western  painting  (or   art  book,  or  book  of  bird  pictures  -  as  Geoff  recently   demonstrated  re  eagles)

Conclusion :  until  the  mid  1990's / early  2000's  the  main  focus  of  IPB  artists  was  to  create a  perfect  painting  inside  a  tiny bottle , regardless  of   whether  the  painting  was a  copy  of  an original  "canvas"   wall-sized  painting  or  an  art  book,  or  a  book  of   bird  illustrations... or   "variation  on a theme  of  classical  Chinese    art"  ,  or  even  an  IPB    Master's  own  bottle.

The  objective  at that time  was  to paint  perfectly  not to  create  new  paintings

Look  at  Wang   Xisan's  paintings :  how  many  are  original creations ?

Since  the  mid   2000's  that has  changed,  and    VMIPB  artists  are   now  so  proficient  at  IPB  painting  skills  even  before    30  years  of  age    that they  can  create  almost  any  picture  inside a   bottle    from  within their  own   imagination,  just  as  can any  "canvas "  artist. 

Thus  we  are  entering  the  age  of  the  REAL "art-within-a-bottle"

Which is  why  a   forward-thinking  group  of   mid-late   30's    Hengshui   artists   are  attending a   3- year   formal Chinese  art-school ,  at their  own  personal  expense,   which   also  means   zero  income  for    3  years   while  they  learn  to  "step  up a  notch" ( except   what they  can  paint  in the   evenings  in their   dormitories)

Just   wait  till this  group of  artists   come  back to  town  and  start   their  new  careers....

Buy  their  new  works   while  they  are  still   cheap, because  within  10  years  their  prices   will  inflate   10 x,  just as happened   with my  Fu Guoshun "discovery"  bottles. 

The  FGS  bottles  I  bought  for  RMB   15K   about  5  years   ago  now  sell  in WXS's   Hengshui   shop  for  RMB150K   (!)

Cheers
Peter


« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 11:14:28 am by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #123 on: June 10, 2014, 05:38:38 pm »

Hi  All

Going  back my the  "pretty  Chinese  lady"   fake -photo  IPB   I  finally  sourced the  original  oil painting  on which  it  was  based (  or rather - from which  it was  stolen !)

It's  by an  artist  called   Hu Zhi Jun    胡志 军

 I attach the  original painting.

You can   see it  by  following the  attached  url

http://www.dashuhua.com/zuopin/20280380.html

The "little  dark  area"  on her hand  is  in  fact  a  jade  pendant

If the    genuine   IPB  bottle  which I  saw  in Li Shouxun's  Hengshui  studio  last month is not  too  expensive  I will  buy it .  The  bottle  was  painted by  Guo  Bebeibei,  who is  married to Wang Sijia  and  is  also  one of  Li Shouxun's  students  (check  my DB   for  more  on  Guo Beibei  if you  have a  copy of the  DB)

Interesting  story, and it  goes to show that  perseverance and  patience pays  off in the  long run  Wink

Cheers
Peter


* ?????-??????.jpg (218.16 KB, 803x990 - viewed 13 times.)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 05:48:26 pm by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

George
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« Reply #124 on: September 22, 2015, 07:35:58 pm »

Just for discussion..

Pin shared a beautiful painted baby portrait bottle.. At first glance, both Steven and I thought it painted a bit flat and possible photo enhanced..

Really glad that was cleared up..

But.. Peter commented, and when I initially stumbled onto photo enhanced paintings, that a key indicator was the dark area to the base of the image.

I am not so sure any longer.. I would like to use this image, and suggest that they may have changed the photo enhanced technique for the darkening out of the base to cover up the resulting flaw resulting from applying to a curved base. They may now be actually taking a little time to paint it so things appear to blend in rather than simply darkening out.

I have seen others like this, and they just do not look right to me..  In this example, there is an overall flatness to the image.. There are many clues ( to my eye ) within the image that do not appear painted.. I think parts of the background "may" be painted, and the straw in the foreground, but the main and most difficult part to have painted ( mother and child ) does not look right..

If I had the money to purchase this or other bottles I have seen similar ( without the darkened out base ) so as to tear it apart, I would do it just to confirm..

I am leaning towards they may be painting over instead of darkening out.. In the case of the first image, the straw was painted instead of just darkening out to mask that area..  In the 2nd image the mothers lower legs, bottom of pants, the the whole browned out area appear to have been painted in addition to a possible photo enhanced image of the mother and child.. Even the steer looks flat.. There are many other clues.. Lets see if you can see those as well...  Wink

I think for those who enjoy purchasing these kind of paintings, there is a need to continually look extra close.. The simple darkening out is possibly just "one" indicator, and not the rule of thumb..





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« Reply #125 on: September 22, 2015, 09:38:47 pm »

Hi George,

Thank you for bringing this up, that was why that I mentioned at beginning, the faking technique was improved  too.

The one you shared is a typical newer photo enhanced bottle, some detail was actually painted or at least brush attached, the outlines,some high light of the hairs and eyes, but all the area shades is photo enhanced, it looks almost close to real, but those bottles look flat, since there is no depth on the area shades.

Steven
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« Reply #126 on: September 23, 2015, 05:03:55 am »

Hi  George

Thanks for    that  mother  and     child   bottle  .

I agree  that    there is   something "strange"  about  it , but I can't say  exactly   what

It seems   somehow   artificial  and  lacks the   vibrancy  of   real  inside painting

The    tiny  white  dots  are also   suspicious

I  proved conclusively    that my   fake  bottle  was a  fake  by  scratching   it   inside   with a  needle  :  the  yellow     photo   film   flaked off

But  as I wrote  before I only  needed to    take a  macro  lens   close  up  of a   small  part   of the   picture  and    blow  it   up ( i.e. enlarge  it )   in  my   computer  to  about  20 X     The   picture   then     became   sort  of  fuzzy  with no  defined  edges  - rather  like  if  you    examine a   low  quality   color  pic   a  newspaper  and  can  see  the   tiny dots

Mind you -  I  have often  had to  blow  up  some   the  pics of some  of my best bottles  many times   to   see  the   exquisite  tiny   strokes  clearly :  they  are   certainly    visible  to the  naked  eye, nor  even  with  a 10X magnifying  glass .

I wish I knew   who  is    turning  out  this  kind of  junk  !

Cheers

Peter

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« Reply #127 on: September 28, 2015, 11:36:39 pm »

Adding link here to Pat's "Interesting discovery - Patent Used for faking inside painted bottles" thread.

Unveiling of the process !
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« Reply #128 on: October 10, 2015, 05:33:39 pm »

Dear all,
some time ago (around 2012/2013 or so, in my first period as member of the Forum) I uploaded an inside "painted" bottle and got the following answer by the Forum (I can't find the post anymore; probably it was deleted by the admin):
"This is a photo-aided (photographic etching) bottle. The darker and blotchy areas are actually burns from some electrolytic kind of process. They also coat the inside with some color to make it look old. The inside is probably dirt or something else to made it
look like used. In some cases, they will actually put some real snuff powder in there to fool the buyer. The bottle is of a style and quality that Ma Shou Xuan would have never used, and in fact never existed until the 50s or so."
Now my question: I bought the bottle about 20 years ago, very cheap. When did the technique of photographic etching start? How expensive is/was the process?
Regards
Georges


* SB No 174.jpg (189.42 KB, 776x1000 - viewed 10 times.)
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« Reply #129 on: October 10, 2015, 06:40:27 pm »


Now my question: I bought the bottle about 20 years ago, very cheap. When did the technique of photographic etching start? How expensive is/was the process?


Well, looks like we know for sure it has been going on since the 1990 patent.. I imagine it must have been going on some time prior to that, but best guess would be 10 or 20 years earlier..
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« Reply #130 on: October 10, 2015, 06:44:42 pm »

Quote
I bought the bottle about 20 years ago, very cheap. When did the technique of photographic etching start? How expensive is/was the process?
[/size]

Georges,

No idea to your question.  All I can say is the snuff bottle literature and sales information I seen from the late 1960's through the 1970's does not have such bottles.  I can only surmise that it started occurring sometime after the 1980'-early 1990's, for I seem to recall seeing such bottles after ebay came on line (September 1995).

Charll
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Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« Reply #131 on: October 10, 2015, 07:16:00 pm »

Hi  All,

There is  another  more  recent  thread  referring to this  topic  which  was  started   by  Pin's  bottle  of his  baby

  (I notice that  George has  already  cross  referenced them)

In the  "Pin -baby- bottle" thread  Pat  wrote  that he had  found a  patent  for  photo-fake  bottles

The  patent  owner  lives  in HK

I  wrote to the  patent  owner  at the  address on the  patent,  hardly expecting  any reply  because   almost certainly the  address was  long out of  date.

But to my  utter  surprise (and very  coincindetally  regarding the  "revival"  of the  original  thread !)  I got  an email  reply yesterday  which  I  have  followed  up as  follows: 

____________________________

EMAIL TO ME

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:26:32 +0800
Subject: About the inside wall patent
From: lichingsze@gmail.com
To: peterbentleyhk@hotmail.com

Dear Dr. Bentley,

I am glad to know that you are interested in using the inside wall patent. I am sure we could work out a plan on this. Would you please provide more details about your requirements?

I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you.

Regards,
C.S. Li (Ms.)

MY REPLY

Dear Ms  Li

Thank you  for your reply

In your  patent   you  describe  WHAT  you  do  to  attach  a  picture  inside a  bottle.

However,  it seems to me that  this  actually  is  not really something can  can be patented e.g  one cannot  patent just  :  "put a  photograph in a  frame"  (or  at least  it's not  a  patent that  the owner can  enforce)

The  patent  is  only  useful  if  you  also  describe  HOW  to  do  it,   e.g.

1. how to make the  photo-copy  film (e.g  what  is  is made of / is there a  backing  paper/ layer? )
2. how to get the  photo-copy  film  inside the  bottle
3. how to  apply  the   film  evenly (smoothly) onto the  inside surface of the  bottle without any  wrinkles
4. how to  stick the  film to the  bottle  inside  surface ( e.g. what  adhesive is used ? )
5. how to  remove the  backing   paper/layer   (e.g  what  chemicals to use ?)
6. how to  cover up the  edges  of the   film  so it  appears  like a real inside- painting

Can you  supply  all these process  details  please ?

Better  still,  can  we meet  and  you  show me (or describe to me)   the  process  and show  me  some
completed  bottles please?

I  am  in HK  all  October and  I am free  any time  day  or evening

I look  forward to  your  reply

Best regards

Peter  Bentley

______________________

Let's  see how  far  I can push this  !

Please  feel  free to  send me  suggestions ,  either  as  a continuation  of this thread  or  by  private  message  on the  Forum if you  think  it's something sensitive

Cheers

Peter

PS:  Georges - regarding the  bottle  pic  you  posted  today, besides the  photo-fake  bottle  I  discussed   before (the  pretty woman  bottle)  I once  bought a bottle  in an  "antique - junk"  shop  in China  about  10 years   ago which looked identical to  the  bottle  you  posted.

 It  was  uniformly  brown  (absolutely no colour  at all)  and showed a picture  which looked  like a  kind  of  wood-cut engraving reproduction of a Chinese city scene copied from a classic Chinese painting from   about   500  years  ago.

At that time I had  only  just started   collecting  so I knew  almost  nothing  about IPBs. Therefore  I naively  thought  I had  stumbled  on my  first  real "antique"  IPB  Roll Eyes

I sent the  pic to  Bill Patrick  who  immediately  told me  it  was a  fake (certainly not an  antique  regardless of  how it was  "painted"  or  otherwise created ) so I  took it back to the  shop and  got my money  back.

I now  realize it was an  early  and very  crude version  of a  photo-fake bottle.
 I recall  I  paid  about  US$50  for it

I attach pics of the  "antique" bottle

 


* Compressed Copy of Antique A 1.jpg (47.39 KB, 336x448 - viewed 11 times.)

* Compressed Copy of Antique B 1.jpg (43.97 KB, 336x448 - viewed 4 times.)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 08:13:48 pm by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #132 on: October 10, 2015, 09:02:32 pm »

Peter

Great.. curious about the reply...
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« Reply #133 on: October 10, 2015, 10:05:31 pm »

Peter,

Some of the earliest methods that I'm aware of is taking rice paper images and cluing them to the inside clear bottles, a Braga Collection bottle comes to mind, Lot 190, Bonhams Nov 24, 2012 sale if I recall correctly.  I actually saw the bottle and remember a later conversation that the bottle was not inside painted.   

Charll
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« Reply #134 on: October 11, 2015, 01:31:22 am »

Good job Peter !  Would be pretty interesting if you actually go to meet and maybe even take pics of the process .
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« Reply #135 on: October 12, 2015, 07:52:14 pm »

Hi All

Latest  update   re the  patent !

Interesting that  Ms  Li  also  collects   snuff bottles

Cheers

Peter

______________________________________

Dear  Ms  Li

Thanks for your  quick  reply

Unfortunately   this particular   Sunday  18  October  I must  fly to  Shanghai  for  a  wedding

I am free  ANY  other  day  / weekend   in October

Can you  please  propose  another convenient  date ? 

Any  Sunday  afternoon is  OK

Starbucks at   Tsim Sha Tsui K11  shopping mall is  OK  for a  venue when we  meet.

My mobile  is  9181-133  if  you   wish to call  me

Best regards

Peter  Bentley


Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 15:03:13 +0800
Subject: Re: About the inside wall patent
From: lichingsze@gmail.com
To: peterbentleyhk@hotmail.com

Dear Dr. Bentley,

Thank you very much for your prompt reply. The questions you have asked were the keys of this patent. I could show you some of the examples and completed fragrance bottle, and we could discuss the details when we meet.

I am working in home office, and I do not speak English very well. I have asked my son to be the translator, but he is only available on Sunday. I suggest we could meet at Starbucks at Tsim Sha Tsui  K11 shopping mall in the afternoon of Sunday 18 Oct. Are you available to meet on Sunday? If yes, what time do you prefer in the afternoon?

I look forward to hearing from you. By the way, are you a snuff bottle collector? I could share with you some of my collection as well.

Best regards,
C.S. Li(Ms)
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« Reply #136 on: October 12, 2015, 10:28:07 pm »

Way to go Peter..

Looking forward to see how this all works out.
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« Reply #137 on: October 12, 2015, 11:01:35 pm »

Indeed..  and to think this all comes out of the patent doc I found.  haha...
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Pat
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