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Fake Photo Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles

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Author Topic: Fake Photo Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles  (Read 25453 times)
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Steven
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« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2012, 11:26:51 am »

Welcome to the forum Frank!

And Thank you for your detailed explanation! Glad to have a glass expert over to the forum.

Steven
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« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2012, 11:28:20 am »

Hi  Frank

Thanks for this  input

You need to   go back  through  this  thread  in  length. It  all started   when I posted a  pic  of a  bottle which  had always  looked    a bit  "strange"  and  someone  -   I  forget  who  ( Pat ? )  -     said  it  was a  photo- fake.  The  person  who made  it  had  somehow  managed to   affix  a   photo - produced  film   pic  of a   girl inside the bottle on one  side, then  he  had   over painted  her  hair with  black , and  also  painted  or  stained the    base  of the  pic dark   brown ,  then   hand-painted a  few  simple   bamboos  on the    back  face  of the  bottle,  and  finally then  sealed  the  whole thing inside   with  some  kind of light   yellow  lacquer.  

I  could not believe    someone  could  or  would  go to such  trouble  to  create a  bottle  so  I was  very  sceptical until I used a  high power  (  32 x)  magnifying  glass   which  proved  the    picture   was  not  painted.    With  any  real   hand-painted  pic  you  can  always see  the  brush  strokes  under  high  power  magnification, but  in this  case the  pic  was    fuzzy  in a  way  that    showed it was  obviously  a photo  when    the  magnifying  glass   went down   below the  resolution  level of the  photo.

Your   article  explains  more  about  how the  bottle   could  have  been  created.  Many  thanks

Cheers

Peter

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Frank A
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« Reply #82 on: November 16, 2012, 01:47:43 pm »

I had read the whole thread before posting. Adding varnish would help to protect the printing. It would not be necessary to leave a carrier film though... although some transfers can first be printed with a 'varnish' layer, sometimes called CCF, clear carrier, film onto which the separate colours are then printed, intended to protect very fine detail from lifting when removing the backing. I would imagine that several techniques have been used by different practitioners. When I first saw these I had assumed that they were transfer printed as they seemed to cheap for hand-painting. I bought some of the spherical objects only to discover that they were really painted. I did not get one with a photo quality image so never got to see that the methods I knew about that could do them were in use.

It adds a layer of difficult adding the transfers inside the bottle, but to people used to painting inside. positioning a transfer and removing the carrier would be simplicity itself. That some also use the transfer method to place an outline does prove that they know the techniques. In the close-ups Peter posted the overpainted hair looks like it was painted on the transfer before it was placed in the bottle. Note that transfers are often printed on tissue paper for easy removal of the wet paper.

Using the technique for transferring simple outlines could have been in use from 1850 although hand drawn transfers only started around 1860. It was even possible to make transfers with an acid etchant (c1878) but not found much evidence of commercial use, although acid etch resist transfers were used in the late 19th century.

There is another method of which I have little knowledge and this involves removing the emulsion from a positive film - this is the method that used to be used for making portrait plates and mugs that were sold in gift shops when people took their photographs in. Again a very simple and cheap process. No doubt also used by some of these IPB cons.

Now the tricky part is to get an image without obvious halftone dots as a giveaway and in general this can be taken as an indicator that these bottles are after 1990. But not quite as collotype lithography is continuous tone and well suited to small scale production... it was invented in 1860. But collotype is a highly specialised form of printing not found everywhere. Although the Japanese do/did make collotype printers. No idea if anyone tried making transfers with ceramic/glass inks.

There are companies selling laser printer toner for ceramic/glass transfers and these would probably be the easiest option today but obviously a more recent development and if a laser can print on tissue... no idea.
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« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2012, 05:58:30 pm »

Dear Frank,
   Your expertise is admirable. However, I'd personally doubt ( and I think you did as well) that there would have been copying in this way in the period 1860-1960, because it was not needed. In the period before 1980,  IPSBs were curios, and not worth copying in that way. From 1890 onward, there were copies of so-called 'masters', but they were done by other artists, who hoped to thereby get a few more pennies for a bottle signed Zhou, etc., than they'd get for their own signed works. But the difference at the time was literally a few more pennies.
   Since 1980, increasingly lately, with fast increasing prices and interest, it is worth 'chancing one's arm', as they say in Ireland.
    But I must admit, based on what you have shared with us, I'm even more nervous about buying unprovenanced works than I was before; and I was seriously nervous before!
Best, and thank you again for joining and sharing your expertise,
Joey
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« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2012, 07:03:11 pm »

Hi Joey,

I am no stranger to fakery in the glass world - it happens wherever a buck is to be made. But yes it is unlikely that fakery was used at such early times. Particularly as for the most part there was a limited glass industry (although their is only one academic study of Chinese glass history) so much of the knowledge of glass printing technology would probably not have been available. However, such techniques are not always used to create fakes they can also be used simply because they exist and an artist decides to try them out. It does not dilute the artist expression if the artist can still achieve his aim and if in the process he can improve his income through higher output all well and good. It is apparent from reading this forum today that some artists have taken advantage of this technology too. It is is only when those with an eye to our societies greatest god (profit) that others with no particular skills look to make a buck or two. Of course they target the mass market and thus generally the cheaper end.

I guess all collecting is about learning your subject, what a few will do to encourage you to spend unwisely is unfortunate but it also serves to aid the learning curve and forces us to look just that little more deeply at how things are made. Fakes are merely a challenge, paradoxically the best fakes become collectibles in their own right too. Although sadly the creators name is usually detached from their talent. I often wonder when a faker sees their work selling for more than they got for it if they feel they missed out - but they rarely step forwards to say it was I. Except of course Tom Keating!

But it would be interesting to discover how early transfer techniques did come into use in the IPB business. Repetition might be the only clue if the transferred outlines got deleted. I would seriously doubt photographic transfers appeared more than 20 years ago and if they did the screens should remain easily visible. Personally I would see this as an area for study and collecting in itself.

Reading on in these forums I have learned a lot, thank you, and been impressed a lot for a world I hardly knew existed - some of the bottles are utterly amazing. I was surprised that water colours and ink are used, are there any cases of fired on enamels? Strange thing is, I am always telling folk to scratch an in-obtrusive area to see if enamel or cold decoration... but no way you can do that test on IPB!!! But enamels, if used, should be discernible by the fact that they have melted and the surface viewd from inside the bottle should look different to ink and water colour. Maybe not so different to oil based pigments though.
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« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2012, 10:04:42 pm »

Great information Frank, and thank you so much for taking the time !  Smiley
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« Reply #86 on: November 16, 2012, 10:56:02 pm »

Frank,
   I seem to remember that someone in China attempted to do IPSBs with enamel colors which would then be fired. I think it was during the 1970s, but might be mistaken.  Does anyone else, know or remember having heard of this?
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2012, 04:32:02 am »

since have seen lots of externally enamelled glass snuff bottles... so the technology was in use, I would be interested to know why it has not been more widely used for IPB.  Those of you in touch with artists might be able to get that question answered.
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« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2012, 04:59:18 pm »

Of course one would have to ask what the point would be of enameling on the interior, as opposed to enameling on the exterior. Would it be noticeable? Would it pass muster as hand-painted work? Are we talking about hand-painted enamels or printed enamel applied to te interior surface and then fired?
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2012, 04:32:39 am »

The point would be that the colours would be fast and the interior surface not subject to wear through use. But as I read mor I understand that at some point the point of IPB was decorative rather than functional making the latter less important. But there may be other reasons that made enamels less suitable for painting. Certainly if they were working with water colours, there is nothing that could match for subtlety of effect that can be achieved. You will have to forgive me these questions as I have only just started looking closely at the subject.
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« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2012, 04:37:34 pm »

Frank,
   Don't apologise for questions. They force us to use our brains, to rethink info that may have been handed down as dogma, rather than as knowledge, empirical or otherwise.
   For example, I was once told by an antique dealer, in all seriousness, that the Chinese artisans lay on their backs to paint inside bottles, and did their work for a bowl of rice a day, as service to the Emperor. It took me a few years to realize how stupid this was, on three points (I was only 13 when told this stuff, and respected the older lady, an acquaintance of my late mom's).
  The scientific method is to question everything, and it has worked pretty well in the West, at least for material issues.
Joey

I  just realized I'd not written the three points: 1. they don't lie on their backs; 2. They didn't do it for a Bowl of rice a day; 3. They didn't  do it as service to the Emperor  (especially after 1911, since there WAS no Emperor  Wink).
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« Reply #91 on: December 01, 2012, 04:37:24 am »

wow ~!! cant help but to read on the whole thread . Cheesy
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« Reply #92 on: December 02, 2012, 04:14:40 pm »

Hi Frank,

I think the main reason the first IPSB's were done in watercolor is quite easy to explain.  The first IPSB artists were Chinese Literati or scholars who had already learned the effective use of painting with Chinese ink and colors on paper and silk.  When they found that a slightly roughed surface of glass would hold ink & colors they started making IPSB's. 

The reason that commercial artists like Ye Zhongsan continued to use these delicate colors is also easily explained.  His son Ye Benqi told Hugh Moss that in his learning phase he would paint an IPSB and show it to his Master/father.  If it wasn't good enough he was told to wash it out and try again. 

Liu Shouben also wrote about the ease of revision of errors using watercolors versus other medium. 
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« Reply #93 on: December 03, 2012, 12:02:36 am »

Guys,
   I just flew in from Hawaii to LA on my way home (Tues, I fly, arriving on Wed., G-D Willing). While in Hawaii, I was privileged to spend a few hours with YF Yang. Because he's been ailing, we met once a week for two weeks, for two hours each time.
   Among the tidbits of info I picked up, it seems that Ye Bengqi would come by YF's grandfather's and father's store in Beijing after work (YF remembers it as about 5:00 PM, occasionally earlier if it was slow; and would paint objects for them, such as ivory figurines that they might want painted. I'd not known that Ye Bengqi did anything but inside painted and exterior enamelled snuff bottles. I asked YF if he still had anything by YBQ which was NOT a snuff bottle. He explained that YBQ worked mainly on commissioned items, so sadly, no.
   I asked him why my Ma Shaoxian (nephew of Ma Shaoxuan), in a bottle I own with a representation  of the Guanyin, and calligraphy on the reverse, had inscribed," picture of the Guanyin, painted after a ritual bath". I asked what ritual bath a Moslem would go to, to ready himself to paint a Buddhist icon!
   Mr. Yang replied that, if, as undoubtedly was the case, the bottle had been commissioned, the customer would have requested the inscription, and Ma Shaoxian would have complied.
    Re. Collars ( at the  Portland convention, H.Moss talked about stoppers.). YF explained that originally (as he would say, "In the early days..." , without always explaining whether he meant early 20th, 19th or even 18th C.!), there were collars of coral, jadeite, stained bone or ivory, turquoise, and glass of assorted colors. When he got to Hong Kong in the 1960s from the PRC, he couldn't get collars of these assorted fine materials, although he tried to get workers there to make them. When he had no luck interesting artisans, he discovered that he could get collars made of old vinyl phonograph records, so he did. He felt that it was more important to have collars to finish off the stopper,  than not.
  I really enjoyed my time with Mr. Yang. It was a highpoint of my Hawaii visit.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #94 on: December 03, 2012, 10:06:34 am »

Dear Joey,

I am so glad that you had some good time with YF in Hawaii, and thanks for sharing all the info YF passed to you.

Have a great and safe trip back to home.

Steven.
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« Reply #95 on: December 03, 2012, 06:29:09 pm »

Thanks for shariing Joey! On the subject of collars, it is very hard to find any of those materials these days, and in the right shape. I have been looking long and hard but unsuccessfully. i guess the only way to do this is custom work.  Even cabuchons (sp?) are found very rarely. A few years ago it was easier as the round shape was popular. Now that also seems no longer the case.
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« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2012, 03:14:01 pm »

Pat,
  You are correct re. collars in the old materials.
However, Guo Jie (Jill) in Beijing is having stoppers and collars in various colours produced in glass in the PRC.
I bought a beautiful 'coral' glass stopper, and a double 'jadeite' green glass collar for the blue glass Yan Yutian bottle I got from George.
   And the prices are reasonable, too.
Joey
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« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2012, 06:26:02 pm »

Hi Joey

Well, its been over a year since I inquired about stoppers from her. Never got a reply after several reminders, so I will just leave it where it is. Good that you have an 'in'.
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« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2012, 09:08:26 pm »


While in Hawaii, I was privileged to spend a few hours with YF Yang.


Joey,
    You were indeed priviledged. I only met YF once, at his shop in Ocean Terminal, and still have the one bottle I bought from him. It had no stopper, but he said if I dropped by the next day he would have one made up for it. When I picked it up the following day it had been fitted with an attractive carnelian stopper with a stained bone collar.
    I recently purchased a lot of old issues of 'Snuff Bottle Review' (edited by Mike Kaynes) from the 1970s, and have been reading through them. Every issue concludes a photo or two of some members at a snuff bottle gathering, or visiting a museum. The one face that crops up in almost every photo, whether Hong Kong, London, Chicago or Hawaii is...........YF 'Happy' Yang! He certain used to get around!
    So did you. No photos, but your name is mentioned often in the editorials.
Tom
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« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2012, 08:50:55 am »

Dear Tom,
    The reason there are no photos, is because my first visit to Hong Kong was in 1978, for the ICSBS convention in Oct. that year. I did correspond quite a bit with Mike Kaynes(-Klitz), as well as YF Yang.
   In 1973, I started corresponding with YF, and asked for a stopper to be made, requesting the price; and also to buy a set of ivory snuff funnel, snuff scoop and snuff dish in a fitted brocade box. He'd commissioned about 50 sets in 1968.
At that time he'd sold them for US$45 a set.
   In 1973, with most of the sets gone, the price was US$450! Mr. Yang knew, from talking to Kaynes, that I was 16. He wrote me a letter in mid-Oct. 1973, which I received during the Yom Kippur War, that he was sending me the set and my stopper as Christmas gifts.
   I wrote back that, as a Jew, I could not accept Christmas gifts, but could accept Hanukka gifts. YF wrote back that as a Chinese Moslem he didn't care if I accepted the objects as Christmas OR Hanukka gifts!
   In 1981, YF and the late Patricia Miller were jointly hosting a reception at the Honolulu Club, on Ward Ave., a scant two blocks short walk from the Honolulu Academy of Arts, now the Honolulu Museum of Art.
   Agatha Aronson gave me something from the buffet I assumed was chicken katsu, in small bite-sized pieces. It was actually battered shrimp, as I discovered when I bit into one.  I discarded the bit that was left, and the other 3 pieces on my plate.
  At the end of the wonderful party, I was saying good bye and thanking YF and the late Patty, when I noticed YF drinking a beer. I said,"Mr. Yang, that's beer! What is a Muslim like you doing with beer?!" He replied, "I saw you eat shrimp!". I replied, "you don't tell the rabbi about the shrimp, I won't tell the imam about the beer!" We both laughed and that was that.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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