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Fake Photo Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles

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Author Topic: Fake Photo Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles  (Read 14799 times)
George
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« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2011, 09:20:52 pm »

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Then  someone else   with  some    rudimentary  skills  paints the  bamboo  leaves and  signs it on the  back ( note  : it's    also unusual  for  a  signature to  appear  on the  back side  of a  bottle , when the  back side  is essentially   blank )



I have  no further interest  in it  as  an IPB, so  it will   henceforth become an  object of   scientific  investigation      Angry   

Cheers  Peter @  Guangzhou



 Cheesy Cheesy

I joined up and posted within a couple of photography forums followed by some Google sluething..

I did find one process that at first look it appears the could work inside a bottle. Waiting for some replies, and then will share here.

Might be fun to see if the signatures and or seals match those of any known student or school.

 
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« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2011, 09:51:18 pm »

Hi  George

I'm   100%  certain the   signature  is  just a  fake , as is the  seal  .

 No  self-respecting artist , or  even  student, would   agree to sign off  personally  to  such  junk,  even  if  he  is  moonlighting  to  earn some  pocket money
 
I have  some  evidence that  up-coming    student  artists  even   use a  pseudonym pen name  on their  ( very   good and  genuine)  practice  bottles ,  eg  Zhang Limin  aka  Spiderman
 
Cheers  Peter

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« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2011, 11:02:14 pm »



 No  self-respecting artist , or  even  student, would   agree to sign off  personally  to  such  junk,  even  if  he  is  moonlighting  to  earn some  pocket money
 


I agree 100% .. Was more wondering if someone or some shop might add a such a faked signature.

Ya know... I may be wrong, but starting to wonder just what the odds are. That after we have as much information as can be had about all this, if it will all find it's way back to a single/specific shop.
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« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2011, 11:11:55 pm »


Peter's "What does Hiawatha have to do with Fake Photo-Printed Bottles?" thread is posted elswhere on the forum, but we at least have to have reference to it here for lurkers and future members !

It fits... !   Cheesy
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« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2011, 09:12:06 am »

Hi  All

STOP  PRESS  ! 

Forget  about  Hiawatha and    Minnehaha

This  is the  REAL   Mini -  HAHA !

Prelimnary  disection   has begun on my fake  bottle  using  a  long , sharp   needle

The   WHOLE  of the   inside of the  bottle  is  coated   with some  kind  of    plastic  film  , which is   what gives the  bottle  the   yellowish color   below the  neck

The  coating becomes  thicker  near the  girl's  picture, and  I  have  actually  carved  off   loose  flaps  which are  now hanging loosely inside the  bottle  above the  girl's  head  ( poor  girl....  next  I will  start  work on HER  !) 

If  George   can  analayze  the  bits  of  the    coating    chemically   that's  even  better,  but  my guess  is   that's  is  some  kind  of  poly-eurothene  spray   coating

The girl's   image   film  seems  to  have  been   stuck  down  first  ( using the   black  base and   balck  hair  hand  painting to cover  up  something)

Then another  layer  of  poly-urothene   was   sprayed  on to uniform the  whole  inside  bottle   surface.   

Finally  the    bamboo leaves and    "signature/ chop"    were  painted on top of the   final sprayed  layer

Certainly  I now  have a      real   smoking  gun !

Ms  Wang in SH  who sold   me the bottle   will have a   shock  when  I show   this  to  her  this   on thursday   afternoon  this  week !

I will  take some  pics  tomorrow to  reveal  the  sordid  truth  and post  them on the  Forum

I told  you  this  bottle  was   destined  for  dissection  and  DEATH  as  far as  my collection is  concerned

And   totally  coincidentally  ( and I do mean   TOTALLY  because  I  number  my bottles    strictly  sequentially  in the  order  in which I  buy  them )    this  bottle  is   number   "040" 

In Chinese  "0"  means  CERTAIN  and  "4"  means  DEATH   (so   4  is  THE  unluckiest number  in China. like  "13" cubed  in  the  west )

Await  more  news  anon........

Hiawatha's  Nemesis   @  Hong Kong
 


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« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2011, 11:59:10 am »



And   totally  coincidentally  ( and I do mean   TOTALLY  because  I  number  my bottles    strictly  sequentially  in the  order  in which I  buy  them )    this  bottle  is   number   "040" 

In Chinese  "0"  means  CERTAIN  and  "4"  means  DEATH   (so   4  is  THE  unluckiest number  in China. like  "13" cubed  in  the  west )



Too funny !

Looking forward to the pics..

Posted this question to yet another photography forum.. Still no replies from any of the forums I have inquired on.

It is really interesting about the two layers of film coating your seeing .. That is a good clue !

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« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2011, 10:18:26 pm »

Hi  All

DISSECTION  PART  1  : 26.4.2011   RESULTS AND  PICTURES

Here  are  the pics  I took this morning . They  are self- explanatory   but   here's a  few comments

1. The  blister I managed  to raise  in the  midddle  of the  girl's  midriff  is an instant  give  away

2. In  one  shot there's a   long  vertical   scratch  I made  near the   girl's  left   arm  with horizontal   scratches  leading off  in both  directions.  It  seemed to me, although  I could not  swear, that the     plastic   film was  thicker    when scratching towards the   girl  than  in the  other  direction  towards the  back of the  bottle  . If my  observation was correct, it would  point to the   picture of the   girl having been  applied  first and then  the  whole  bottle  inside  was   coated  with the  yellowish    plastic  film to seal  the   picture   and make a uniform  inside  surface  to disguise the  edges  of the     film with the  picture  on it  ( very  clever)

I wonder how the   yellowish  plastic  film was applied.  A  liquid  process ?  Or a  spray ? In  ether  case the  neckof the bottle  was wiped    clean  so that  you can see the natural    clear  glass  there.

3. I  scratched   hard  above the   girl's head and   and    maganaged to  leave it  so that  there was a loose  flap of   the    film  hanging  by one  edge.   There's a  shot   inside the  bottle   through the  neck   where   you can just see the  flap

4. As soon as   you  scratch  off the   film    you  can  see the  natural   clear  color  of the  glass.

5. Hard to  say if the  manually painted  bamboo  leaves and   signature  were  painted  before  or  after the  yellowish   film was  applied inside the  whole bottle.  But I suspect   after the  film was applied  because  the manual work is the  hardest,  and  also    bottle  interior  seems  not to be   frosted ( see  6  below),  and  it's  hard to  make paint  adhere to  smooth  glass

6.  The   bottle  is  unusually thin  glass and very light. It's almost transparent , so that    you can  easily  see  the    back  from the  front and  vice  versa.   This  is  not  like    any other  real bottle  I have .  Real bottle walls   are  much  thicker, whether  made of   glass  or  rock crystal.  Also  real bottles  have a frosted  interior  to  make the paint  stick better ( Bill  has a   video  on Youtube which  shows  how  this  is  done )

7.  After all the  scratching there  were  tiny scraps  of     plastic   film at the  bottom of the bottle  which I shook out.

     GEORGE : if I  send  the scraps to  you  do you know anyone  who could analyse the  material chemically ?

Cheers  Peter   aka  The  Dissectionist





























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« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2011, 10:21:35 pm »

Sorry........ Embarrassed

I  posted  one pic  too big so that  part of the  text   was cut off

I will post the  text again later  today

Cheers  Peter
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« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2011, 11:10:06 pm »

I could not wait Peter as wanted to read this.. It is a bit difficult when it's cut off due to the large pics. That is one thing to think about when posting pics..

So this forwarded from Peter..

Hi  All

DISSECTION  PART  1  : 26.4.2011   RESULTS AND  PICTURES

Here  are  the pics  I took this morning . They  are self- explanatory   but   here's a  few comments

1. The  blister I managed  to raise  in the  midddle  of the  girl's  midriff  is an instant  give  away

2. In  one  shot there's a   long  vertical   scratch  I made  near the   girl's  left   arm  with horizontal   scratches  leading off  in both  directions.  It  seemed to me, although  I could not  swear, that the     plastic   film was  thicker    when scratching towards the   girl  than  in the  other  direction  towards the  back of the  bottle  . If my  observation was correct, it would  point to the   picture of the   girl having been  applied  first and then  the  whole  bottle  inside  was   coated  with the  yellowish    plastic  film to seal  the   picture   and make a uniform  inside  surface  to disguise the  edges  of the     film with the  picture  on it  ( very  clever)

I wonder how the   yellowish  plastic  film was applied.  A  liquid  process ?  Or a  spray ? In  ether  case the  neckof the bottle  was wiped    clean  so that  you can see the natural    clear  glass  there.

3. I  scratched   hard  above the   girl's head and   and    maganaged to  leave it  so that  there was a loose  flap of   the    film  hanging  by one  edge.   There's a  shot   inside the  bottle   through the  neck   where   you can just see the  flap

4. As soon as   you  scratch  off the   film    you  can  see the  natural   clear  color  of the  glass.

5. Hard to  say if the  manually painted  bamboo  leaves and   signature  were  painted  before  or  after the  yellowish   film was  applied inside the  whole bottle.  But I suspect   after the  film was applied  because  the manual work is the  hardest,  and  also    bottle  interior  seems  not to be   frosted ( see  6  below),  and  it's  hard to  make paint  adhere to  smooth  glass

6.  The   bottle  is  unusually thin  glass and very light. It's almost transparent , so that    you can  easily  see  the    back  from the  front and  vice  versa.   This  is  not  like    any other  real bottle  I have .  Real bottle walls   are  much  thicker, whether  made of   glass  or  rock crystal.  Also  real bottles  have a frosted  interior  to  make the paint  stick better ( Bill  has a   video  on Youtube which  shows  how  this  is  done )

7.  After all the  scratching there  were  tiny scraps  of     plastic   film at the  bottom of the bottle  which I shook out.

     GEORGE : if I  send  the scraps to  you  do you know anyone  who could analyse the  material chemically ?

Cheers  Peter   aka  The  Dissectionist
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« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2011, 11:27:27 pm »



     GEORGE : if I  send  the scraps to  you  do you know anyone  who could analyse the  material chemically ?



No not really.. Not sure it really matters. Think it is seems safe enough to say that it is some kind of epoxy/resin. I am going to go with that it was most likely sprayed. Now the trick in my mind is how someone managed to juggle the pic into the bottle, position it and hold it in place while covering it with the second layer of epoxy/resin. I can't imagine brushing a second layer of "sticky/gummy" epoxy by hand over what is likely a very fragile paper/plastic photo image .

While you were doing your dissection, I did get a response from one photo forum that fits with what your finding.

Here is the comment from the forum.

It would be nice to figure out what kind of thin color printed paper was used.. Apparently a printer will print on something as fragile as tissue paper.

I wonder if once the photo on thin paper/plastic is positioned over the first ( sprayed ? ) layer of epoxy/resin, if maybe something like a small baloon could be inserted then blown up to hold the photo firmly against that first layer ?

The Liquid / Light Emulstion I mentioned in the original post on the photo forum is a process I found online for transfering to glass, but apparently it only works in black and white. No color.
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« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2011, 10:40:14 am »

Hi  George

You are  probably  right  that  it  doesn't  matter  what the  yellow  material  is. All  I can say is that it's    sort of    soft-ish  and  flexible  rather than hard and  brittle,  which to me  implies  some  kind of  poly-eurothene liquid or  spray

The  link from the  other   forum  is  very  interesting  : I never  thought  of  tissue  paper  for  the image.  But it  would   work !  Dampen slightly  to make it  stick to the   bottle  then  apply the  poly-eurothene  layer to seal it.  These  days  you  can  ink-jet  print  onto  almost anything .  So a  thin  plastic  film  would  be  easy . Could even be something  as thin as  Cling-foil ( as  used to cover   food in the  fridge)  but  it  would  have to   be  much easier than   Cling-foil to  unroll  evenly inside the  bottle.

Obviously the   hand-paiting  at the  base   and the  girl's hair is  for a  purpose.  Must be to   fix the  image. Sticky  wet  paint  =  stick  image  film !?

Anyway, tomorrow I   go to  SH  so  it's  gun fight  at  OK  coral   with   Ms  Wang  at her bottle   shop. I hope  she  still has a few  more  in the    series   like  my fake  bottle  so I can  examine them for  common   indications  (  darkened  base and   hand-painted   hair)

Cheers   Peter
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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2011, 09:23:31 am »

Hi   All

Got  the   smoking  gun  !

Hang in  there    over   the  weekend   till  I  upload   what  I  found  in  Ms  Wang's  shop  in  SH   last night

Cheers  Peter
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« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2011, 12:34:41 pm »

Excellent ..

I am on the edge of my chair with anticipation !
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« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2011, 02:44:51 am »

Hi  George, All

Here    they  are  !  Ms Wang  still  had   2  of the  bottles   unsold  ( originally  she  had   about   6  -7)

They are  all  exactly the same  as  my  disected  bottle  :

1.  Yellowish   glass  =  inside  poly-eurothene  coating

2.  Base  of  bottle  blacked out

3.  Girl's  head  manually  painted

4. Same  handwriting  for the "signature"   and  other  characters  ( actually,    quite a nice   style  IMHO )

Sorry the  pics  are  low -res (  100  kB) .  I accidentally     had  my  pocket camera  on  a  low -res  setting

I  stupidly   forgot to  bring my  own bottle   with me to   Shanghai, but I was  able to show  Ms Wang  the pics  on my laptop

She  was  as  suprised  as I was to   see that   they are  fakes . Really  - you can only  tell   if  using high-power  magnifying  glass   ( which  she  does  not have in the  shop)

She  said  they  all  came  from  Hengshui  , which  does  not  surprise  me  because  I know  her   primary  middle-man  ( "runner")   is  a  Hengshui person,  who is  somehow connected  also  with  Da  Yong because a  lot of    Da  Yong's  junior   students  bottles   end up  in her  shop  (  eg  Spiderman  aka  Zhang  Limin)

Ms  Wang    promised to   try and    find  our  who really    created  these bottles , but  my bet is  that I will  only  find  out myself  next  time   I go to  Hengshui  .

I  will  attend the  Wang Xisang  BJ   Museum  opening    at end of  May, so  maybe,  with    help  from  Jill, I can  give  my fake bottle to   Wang  Ziyong  (  Wang  Xisan's son)   ask  him to investigate

Cheers   Peter





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« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2011, 08:27:01 am »


She  said  they  all  came  from  Hengshui  , which  does  not  surprise  me  because  I know  her   primary  middle-man  ( "runner")   is  a  Hengshui person,  who is  somehow connected  also  with  Da  Yong because a  lot of    Da  Yong's  junior   students  bottles   end up  in her  shop  (  eg  Spiderman  aka  Zhang  Limin)




So those boys may be doing a little more than partying up in Da Yong's flat late at night..  Just kidding.. !  Cheesy

You having the ability to possibly pass a bottle on to Wang Ziyong with your friend Jill's help could be a pretty big deal in tracking down the origin of these.

Way to go Peter !  This is getting interesting. A bit of a detective's journey !

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« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2011, 01:41:14 pm »

Hi  George, All,

I  can't  believe  Da  Yong, nor  any of  his   students ,  would  have anything to  do with  these   fake bottles

But they  obviously   share the  same  "runner"   who feeds  Ms  Wang  in SH  

When  I mentioned  Ms  Wang  to  Da  Yong  he  said  he  had  heard  of  her, but never  actually  met  her, so  she  is  certainly one   step  removed  from the  Da  Yong    inside circle of  students

This  past week  when  I went to  Ms  Wang's  shop  in  SH  ( first  visit to  SH   for  over  4  months  because  of   my recent  knee  replacement  operation )   I found  she  is now  sharing  her  tiny   shop   with  another   craftsman  who makes  pictures  by  cutting( hammering)   tiny   holes  in  black  slate   stone .

Obviously  business  is   going  slow  for  Ms  Wang  if  she is  forced to share  her  shop  rent.  

Cheers   Peter  @  HK
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« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2011, 02:23:48 pm »



I  can't  believe  Da  Yong, nor  any of  his   students ,  would  have anything to  do with  these   fake bottles


I certainly do not either, and just for the record.., truly was "just kidding" in the above post !

Your knee operation must have been a great success as you seem to be able to get out and about again ?

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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2011, 07:33:08 pm »

Thanks very much for the investigative report Peter!  Nice work.  I am still very anxious to find out if this 'person' or 'group' who creates this is 'known' and how the art/craft community in Hengshui or elsewhere reacts to this.  I also personally believe that no self-respecting arts and/or crafts person who is serious about his/her calling would do this.   It is one thing to copy/duplicate/replicate it out of respect for others, out of personal 'test', or whatever reason, but it is another to fool or trick people.   Hope you are well!
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« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2011, 08:25:58 pm »

Hi Pat

Yes, I am   determined to    find out   who  ( what   group?)  is   doing  this  scam , but I  doubt  if I  personally can ever do anything to  close  him/her/ them   down.

The fact  is that  the  work is    VERY  good ,   certainly  much better  SUPERFICIALLY  than most   tourist-class  bottles
 and   that bottle   fooled  me  ever since  I bought  it  until  George   pointed  out  it was  likely to be  a fake. 

In fact, when  I read  George's   message on the   Forum  I  immediately  thought  BULLSHIT   (excuse  my  French)  and  grabbed the  bottle  to look under  my   magnifying  glass in detail.  Then  I   suddenly  realized  he  might be  correct  and the  more  I  looked  , the  more  I realized that  George was indeed  100%  correct.  But it  took  my  32 x  pocket  magnifiying   glass to    see  the    fuzziness   which  proved  it  was a  fake.  What  tourist carries a    32 x  power  magnifying   glass  with him every day  ?

I will   later  post  some   info  about     canvas  copy-painting  in China  in due  course. It's a  huge  industry

Cheers   Peter  @  HK



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« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2011, 09:10:50 pm »

I am not ready to drag any particular eBay seller user ID into the mix here, but there is one particular eBay seller offering these bottles on a regular basis.

I tried making a little conversation with her about the artist via the eBay messaging system. She replied that these are 50% painted and 50% photo. Although she does not include that information within the description, even though she is well aware of it.

Replied also that she has an antique shop in Shanghai where they also sell bottles from. I asked for an address so a collector friend could possibly stop in sometime. Also asked if she knew how this 50/50 process was accomplished.

That was the last I heard back from her ( Tina ).

Other than these 50/50 bottles that she offers, almost all other bottles she is selling are really quite nice. Some actually exceptional..

Disheartening to see her willingly include, and not disclose the reality on these bottles. Just sort of puts a wrench in my willingness to purchase any more of her nice bottles. 
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