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Fake Photo Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles

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Author Topic: Fake Photo Inside Painted Chinese Snuff Bottles  (Read 15034 times)
Steven
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« Reply #100 on: December 07, 2012, 08:55:26 am »


  At the end of the wonderful party, I was saying good bye and thanking YF and the late Patty, when I noticed YF drinking a beer. I said,"Mr. Yang, that's beer! What is a Muslim like you doing with beer?!" He replied, "I saw you eat shrimp!". I replied, "you don't tell the rabbi about the shrimp, I won't tell the imam about the beer!" We both laughed and that was that.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

LOL, Great story Joey!!
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« Reply #101 on: December 07, 2012, 09:04:08 am »

Mr Yang is such a wonderful man, Steven. You would be amazed if you met him. Do you ever get to Hawaii? I could organise a meeting.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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Steven
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« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2012, 09:10:29 am »

WOW!!! Grin Grin

Thank you Joey, I have never been to Hawaii, but will plan to go there just for meeting him, will let you know if I am ready!

Steven
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« Reply #103 on: December 07, 2012, 09:23:25 am »

Yes, Joey,
   Another great story for your book.
Tom
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Joey
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« Reply #104 on: December 07, 2012, 11:23:57 am »

I'm going to have to get serious about this book idea.
George, how hard would it be to collate all my stories in one thread?  I have almost 2,000 postings on the Forum!
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #105 on: January 11, 2013, 02:00:47 am »

Hi all on this thread,

Since I last read this topic, i was speculating that the technique might involve something similar to what
i used to do when I developed B/W photos in the dark room. Projecting light through the developed negative
onto a chemical-coated paper which was in turn shaken in a tray of chemical liquid. The image would emerge.
When IP artist, Li Hui ( 李晖 ) was in Singapore yesterday, I asked him if an artist could coat a layer of chemical
on the inside of the bottle first and then project image of a portrait onto the bottle. he confirmed my speculation.
He further commented that the result would be a faint outline of the portrait. Such image, would only last for about
4 - 5 years. He told us that this was done when certain corporate client wanted to produce, at short notice, a number
of bottles of say the company building. Such process of producing IP bottles will ensure consistency of the image in all
the bottle produced ( hand-drawn pictures cannot be 100% identical in every bottle as we know ). His view was that
buyers of such " Photo-induced IP Bottle " ( my own description ) should treat this as another form of IP bottle ( my
interpretation of this is that this is an innovative new IP bottle for souvenir collectors ).

Inn Bok
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deelsb26
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« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2013, 11:19:16 am »

Since we are on the subject today...what do you all think of this IP bottle?....it looks strange to me, the hair does not match the "quality" of painting on the face...photo enhanced perhaps??
Danna



* ca13010997.jpg (60.69 KB, 450x600 - viewed 19 times.)
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« Reply #107 on: January 11, 2013, 11:54:17 am »

It looks a good painting to me, I do agree with you the hair is not best painted, but it can happen depends on artist's skill.

if you can ask a better images, then I can tell it better , my comments are all based on the image we have. could be wrong.

Steven
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« Reply #108 on: January 11, 2013, 12:10:47 pm »

Sorry Danna,

I might have to take my words back after seeing the reverse side of the bottle.

Most likely the bottle was photo enhanced, some area were painted, but some are printed.

the outline was painted to make shape edge, but the render was way to smooth compared to the outline.

Well spotted.

Steven


* ca13010998.jpg (61.3 KB, 450x600 - viewed 22 times.)
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« Reply #109 on: January 11, 2013, 06:44:44 pm »

thanks steven, ya I should have included the back side....but like I said, the face of the first girl is really good, but the hair is funky...and the background looks flat. You are right, you can definately see the outline on the second side, and the face is not the same quality...
danna
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« Reply #110 on: January 12, 2013, 01:36:50 pm »

Boy, it is getting harder and harder, not to get tricked.
Joey
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Peter Bentley 彭达理
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« Reply #111 on: January 12, 2013, 06:55:15 pm »

Hi All

It's  very  hard   to tell a  photo-assisted IPB  bottle   from a  real one  based  on a  small low- resolution  pic. as per  ebay

A  photo-assisted  bottle   is  clearly a  photo  at  high  resolution ( maybe  enhanced  with  what are  obviously  rather   crude real  hand-painted  brush  strokes in some  places).   Whereas,  in high- res   pic of a real  IPB   you  can see the  individual  brush  strokes

And  by the  way  : there  seems to  be   two  categories of  photo-assistance

A.  Just the  outline  has  been   somehow  transferred  to  the  inside  of the  bottle eg  some  kind of  photochemical   layer  inside

B.  The  whole  picture  is   actually   some  kind of   film  on  which the   picture  has been printed using a  photo-technique,  then the   film  has been   transferred to the  inside  of the  bottle  and   stuck  down, and the   edges and bottom  painted  over to   disguise the the  fact that  it's a film, not a  painting.   

( In case  Type(A), I wonder   why the  artist   does not  simply  photo-print the  outline to the  outside  of the  bottle and then  wipe it off  .There  must be  some reason  for this)

If  you   drill  down to the  very    beginning  of   this   chain,  I have posted   side -by- side  examples  of  a   Type(B)    photo-assisted  (  =   photo-film = 100%  fake)  bottle together with  a  real  IPB   painted  by a  Li Shouxun top   student .   I  actually   bought the  fake  bottle  myself  "for   fun"  in my early collecting  days ,  just  because  I thought the   girl in the bottle is  very  pretty  ( she  is !) . It  cost me  about  US$100  from my    favourite  specialist   VMIPB   shop in SH  and the    shop owner  - like  me  - thought  it  was  genuine. In fact  the  shop  owner  had  several  bottles  in the  same   style  for  sale.  She  would  never  knowingly  have  sold me a  fake, let  alone   even   kept a  fake  in stock.  It  was  only  later  that  someone  on the    Forum  (  was it  Pat ? )  alerted  me  to  the  likelihood  this  was a   photo-fake : he  said the  giveaway  was  the   dark  base of the bottle . At  first  I was  in total  disbelief  until  I    dissected the  bottle  and   scraped  away the   film   inside   with a  thin  pointed   tool .  Only THEN  did I  believe !

In the  case of  type  (A)  I have  heard  occasional  cases  of    genuine  artists  using this  technique  when they were  commissioned to  paint  several bottles the  same ,  so  the  photo- outline   technique  was  just a  short  cut to the  long process  of   mapping  out the  outline .

I'm sure there's a  lot more to  learn as we  go along.  But the  message   is clear  :  caveat   emptor  when you buy   sight  unseen on ebay.  Even  with  VMIPBs  provenance  is  everything.   And as for  old    IPBs  : there's a   thriving  industry   faking these  by good  quality modern  artists !     If  a  good  student  artist  can   copy    with  90%  perfection the highly  complex  work  of  a   current  VMIPB  grand master ,   for  sure   he can  easily  copy the  much  simpler  work of an  antique   IPB  artist  e.g.   Ye  Zhongsan,   Zhou  Leyuan   etc.

I have  in my  collection one of Sun Honglin's  most  amazing   latest   creations   of   sea -scapes  :  stormy  waves / foam /  clouds.  These  now   sell  for  RMB15-20 K.  I also  have  a   95%   accurate   copy   - or  rather  "painted  in the  same  style  as if  by  SHL"  -  which   I bought  at the   WXS   shop  in Hengshui  for  only  RMB300.  This  was  not passed  off as   fake  SHL  because  it was signed  by the   student  artist  -  Wu Weitao. It  was  copy/  based  on a  SHL  bottle   from his  2009  catalogue, which   Michael  Ko  (  curator  of the   WXS  BJ  museum )  bought . My  seascape  bottle is  very  similar , but   differs  in some points because  I  commissioned  it  directly  from SHL "based  on the  same  style" as the  original in his  2009 catalogue.    But  if a young artist  like  Wu Weitao  can  copy  a  SHL bottle  from a  catalogue  to  such a   high   degree that  only  the   signature  tells them   apart   except to   real collector  of  SHL's  works, then   certainly such  a  young - or  old -  artist can copy  a  Ye  Zhongsan  bottle  (or  paint  'as  if the  same  style' as Ye  Zhongsan)  and   pass  it  on to the   antique bottle  market   for    RMB  2 -3 K  if he can find a  suitable    fence

On  which  unhappy  note...

Cheers  Peter


* The original Sun Honglin Bottle ( now owned by Michael Ko , BJ).jpg (103.41 KB, 1024x671 - viewed 22 times.)

* CC Wu Weitao.jpg (352.06 KB, 751x1024 - viewed 24 times.)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 06:57:27 pm by Peter Bentley 彭达理 » Report Spam   Logged

George
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« Reply #112 on: January 12, 2013, 07:16:26 pm »


George, how hard would it be to collate all my stories in one thread?  I have almost 2,000 postings on the Forum!


Are you asking if all of your forum topics can be moved into a single location on the forum ?

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« Reply #113 on: January 13, 2013, 12:39:50 pm »

Actually George, Charll directed me to a way to look at all 2250 posts. I'm fine.
Thanks, Joey
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« Reply #114 on: February 28, 2013, 11:58:45 am »

I am adding some photos here because I think this is a photo enhanced painted bottle. (also posted under my last VMIP for awhile)
What is your opinion? Note, not painted dark on the bottom!
Thanks, Danna
ps you will not hurt my feelings, I am going to try to get my money back!


* DSC_00012.jpg (56.28 KB, 600x623 - viewed 8 times.)

* DSC_00023.jpg (69.77 KB, 600x719 - viewed 7 times.)

* DSC_00031.jpg (55.79 KB, 600x434 - viewed 6 times.)
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« Reply #115 on: February 28, 2013, 12:27:20 pm »

Thank you Danna,

I have included a pic here to indicate the fake area. hope it helps, the ear is quite obviously photo printed.

Steven


* fake.jpg (193.19 KB, 600x719 - viewed 20 times.)
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« Reply #116 on: February 28, 2013, 01:48:53 pm »

Hi  Danna

Seems  more  likely  than  not   this  is a fake bottle, sorry to  say

The   acid  test, as I  wrote  before,  is  a  high-power  hand-held  magnifying  glass ( which  should  be  standard  "kit"  for    all collectors  -  I carry  a   big  8x  and a   small   32 x glass    with me  all the  time  in my  back-pack  :  any  good  stationary  shop   sells  these   magnifying  glasses, and they  are very  cheap .  Old  people  often  use them for  reading )

Under  high power  you can  see the   detail,  just  like  if  you  blow  up a  printed   color  pic  you can see the  individual    pixel   dots .  If the  blow-up  shows  real   micro  brush   strokes  it's  obviously a  real hand-painted  bottle.  But   if  the blow-up   looks    sort of  "uniform"  and    rather   fuzzy  / out-of-focus   it's a    photo-fake

Don't   feel  bad  about this ( except  do get your  money  back and  black-list the    e-bay seller : name and shame).  I fell  for   this  trick  and  so  also  did   my  trusted  VMIPB   shop  dealer  in SH who  would  NEVER  knowingly sell  a  fake .

Cheers

Peter
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« Reply #117 on: February 28, 2013, 01:58:52 pm »

Hi again

Here's  some  pics  from the  distant  past

The  photo-faked girl  has her  hair  hand-painted  on top  of the   photo-fake   face

Cheers
Peter


* Real Bottle (left) & Photo-faked bottle (right).jpg (74.63 KB, 809x768 - viewed 4 times.)

* Pianted face (full).JPG (53.28 KB, 225x289 - viewed 5 times.)

* Photo-faked face (full) HAIR IS HAND-PAINTED.JPG (82.16 KB, 306x396 - viewed 2 times.)

* Painted Face.JPG (426.03 KB, 688x886 - viewed 5 times.)

* Photo-faked.JPG (220.9 KB, 516x723 - viewed 2 times.)
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« Reply #118 on: February 28, 2013, 02:49:35 pm »

Thank you for adding this Danna...

I need to start adding more of the same that do not show that dark area I first mentioned early on here...

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« Reply #119 on: May 25, 2014, 08:01:25 am »

Hi All

Long-term   Forum members   will recall   a  thread  from long  ago (  about  2  years  or  more)   about  photo-faked  bottles  .  There's a  technique (and I  don't  understand  how it's  done) to    attach a  photo-film inside a bottle.

There  are  two  give-away features  of  such bottles  :

1.  Under  a high   resolution  magnifying  glass*  the   "painting"  is  fuzzy -  you  cannot see the  actual   brush  strokes

*(alternatively,  take  a  close-up  3MB digital   photo  in Macro  mode  and then  blow  up the  pic   in your  computer)

2.  A  brownish   patch  at the  base of the  bottle,  which seems to  be  something to  do   with  covering  up the  bottom  edge  of the   photo-film

I  once  bought one  such bottle   thinking  it  was    real ,   and it   was only when  someone ( Pat? )   alerted me  to the   fact that  it   was  most likely photo-  faked  that  I investigated  and  dissected the  bottle  - even  scraping off   some of the  yellowish photo-film . Fortunately  I  only   paid   few  hundred  RMB  for the  bottle,  but  it    did  really fool me, and  even   fooled the  dealer  who sold it  me. 

The  other  week  I was  in Hengshui  and   saw  the  identical  picture    painted  for  real in a  bottle

Both the    photo-faked  bottle  and   the  real-painted  bottle   are  so  identical  that  they must  have been  based  on the  same  original   canvas oil  painting  taken  from  a Chinese  art  book

I attach  the  pics  of the  photo-faked    bottle  and  the  real- painted  bottle  ( apologies for the  bluish   tint  of the    real-painted  bottle  pic  :  I  had  accidentally   screwed  up the    white  balance  on my   digital camera.  The  actual  colors   are  identical  to the    faked  bottle  colors)

But  you will   notice  one   crucial   difference  :  given that the   real-painted  bottle  is   a  correct   copy  of the  actual painting,  the  photo-faked  bottle  is   right-left hand  reversed !

So obviously,  in the  photo-faking  process the  "handed-ness"  of the  picture   gets   reversed

Very  interesting...........   !

Cheers
Peter


* Faked Bottle.JPG (260.94 KB, 513x1024 - viewed 14 times.)

* Real bottle.JPG (234.92 KB, 496x885 - viewed 19 times.)
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