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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 21, 2018, 02:52:43 am
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Cloisone Bottle To Share ..

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Author Topic: Cloisone Bottle To Share ..  (Read 1188 times)
Joey
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« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2017, 10:54:19 am »

Dear Steven,
   
      I agree with you. But also, we are talking about Japanese cloisonne from ca. 1870 to 1930. And the Japanese after 1858, went all out accepting Western technological advances - their government actually imported top tech people and bought the best tech stuff they could. While the Qing Court fought the introduction of Western advances tooth and nail.

     So of course the Japanese technology was superior; but their style was much more understated and elegant, where Chinese tended to be more stylized and visually 'heavy'.

     I don't really know why the Chinese didn't use the 'goldstone' glass in their cloisonne; they certainly had it - look at all the glass bottles with goldstone glass inclusions (in my 1987 catalogue, #4 and #8; but I had at least 3 more in my collection; and there are a few in almost every auction).
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2017, 07:59:40 am »

Dear Joey,

You made a point that I was going to make in that the Chinese had Goldstone available to them and well before the mid 19th Century as it was one of the processes they were keen to copy from gifts presented to them from Foreigners.

As I understand it, Japanese art initially stemmed from Chinese art before the Japanese then started developing their own style of art. I think it may be unlikely that the Chinese would adopt a Japanese style on an item, a snuff bottle, that was so Chinese in origin.

However, the Japanese were very capable of copying a Chinese style to produce copies of snuff bottles for foreigners as well as producing them in their own artistic style. So there is a possibility that any Chinese style cloisonné snuff bottle could be  produced in Japan but far less likelihood that a Japanese style bottle was made in China.

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2017, 08:34:06 am »

Dear Adrian,

      You'd think so, but you'd be wrong.  Roll Eyes Shocked Grin
Look at #102, #105 and #110 in "Dragon"; all three are partially decorated with Mon copying Japanese design, and on a Chinese snuff bottle. The use of Japanese Mon (stylized floral elements) started during the Transitional Period (between Ming and Qing) on export wares, especially those being sent to Japan. But they became popular on wares for the Court from ca.1715 in the late Kangxi reign, and continued.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey



  I think it may be unlikely that the Chinese would adopt a Japanese style on an item, a snuff bottle, that was so Chinese in origin.

  So there is a possibility that any Chinese style cloisonné snuff bottle could be  produced in Japan but far less likelihood that a Japanese style bottle was made in China.

Regards, Adrian.
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Tom B.
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« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2017, 07:21:44 pm »

Dear Joey,

Very astute observation and Mon flowers were not the only Japanese decoration that intrigued the Kangxi Emperor.  There is a 7.6 cm High Kangxi Mark & Period Enameled Copper Snuff Bottle with Maki-e Lacquer inlay in the National Palace Museum Taiwan:

Best regards,

Tom B.

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Tom B.

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« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2017, 11:56:34 pm »

Dear Tom B.,

     Thank you!
     I remember that bottle from the wonderful Snuff Bottle exhibition  in 2014 at the National Palace Museum, Taipei. I'd gone there after the ICSBS Hong Kong/Xian convention, when most convention attendees had gone on to Xian and then to Beijing.

    Best,
Joey
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Tom B.
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« Reply #85 on: October 15, 2017, 09:50:27 pm »

Dear Joey,

You lucky guy!  They have some wonderful snuff bottles in their collection.

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Tom B.
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Tom B.

Steven
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« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2017, 11:02:55 pm »

I was trying to find some imperial workshop Cloisone bottles from the National Palace Museum of Taipei Or Beijing, and trying to compare with those cloisone bottles sold on the auction houses and marked with Qianlong Nian zhi, but so far I have no luck at all.

There are a quite few of enamel on metal bottles from Kangxi Nianzhi ,and Qianlong Nianzhi on both Museums, why there is no a single cloisone bottle is recorded. It might because of the closing down of the workshop in 1789, but its almost the end of Qianlong period, how about from 1736-1789?

-Joey, Tom , do you know when did the workshop resume after the closing down?

Steven
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« Reply #87 on: October 16, 2017, 04:55:01 am »

Dear Joey and Tom B,

What I was intending to suggest was a pure Japanese style not being used by the Chinese as opposed to the adoption of some Japanese elements into a Chinese style.

The 3 examples in "Dragon" have a Chinese sense to them in having formalised borders, background diaper and Chinese emblems used as well as drawing on Mon type emblems. I love 102 as it's so unusual.

The Maki-e panel is on a bottle with a very Chinese style to the formalised borders.

However seeing that the Chinese were happier to incorporate Japanese elements makes things more complicated as I would have otherwise felt that any Japanese elements mixed with a Chinese style were more likely Japanese produced.

I might have to start collecting modern items where "Made in China" marks make it far less complicated  Wink

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #88 on: October 16, 2017, 10:36:07 am »

Dear Steven,

I came to the same dilemma and wonder if the Taiwan or Beijing Museums have some in storage.  Cloisonne snuff bottles were rarely collected until the last 8 to 10 years.  The main reason was the fact that so many reproduction were made since the 1950's.  Most dealers and collectors put all but a very few in the category of tourist trash.

I am wondering where you found the date "1789" for a closing of the Imperial workshop?  I have the catalog "Cloisonné - Chinese Enamels from the Yuan, Ming, and Qing Dynasties" from the Exhibition held at the Bard Graduate school January 26 – April 17, 2011

https://www.bgc.bard.edu/gallery/exhibitions/27/cloisonn

In it they have a chapter dedicated to the Imperial patronage of the arts.  It explains that there is very little written record pertaining specifically to cloisonne, but from the records they list "workshops and manufactures in the province of Guangdong, in the cities of Yangzhou (Jiangsu province), Beijing (Heibei province), and Jiujiang (Jiangxi province), among others, each of which displayed different styles and characteristics." 

They do not mention the closing of a specific location.  I would be interested in your source.

Incidentally in reading that chapter again, I found the following to be very interesting.  "The archives reveal that after the thirty-third year of the Qianlong reign (1769), the Hongli emperor often commanded that double gold-plating be used.  For these reasons, the cloisonné objects of the Qianlong period are for the most part brilliant and glittering; ..."  and   "After the Jiaqing era, the production of enamels by the Imperial Manufactures decreased, doubtless because of domestic problems, foreign invasions, and China's declining power."  Personally I would add that the Daoguang Emperor was somewhat obsessed with the style of the Yongzheng period and Yongzheng didn't order much cloisonné preferring painted enamel work.

Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2017, 02:44:15 pm »

Dear Adrian,

      After reading your comment below, I went back to look at the three, and I must admit, all DO have a very Chinese feel to them, albeit incorporating this iconic Japanese detail.
But isn't discussing these details part of what makes collecting the bottles so much fun?!
Best,
Joey


Dear Joey and Tom B,

What I was intending to suggest was a pure Japanese style not being used by the Chinese as opposed to the adoption of some Japanese elements into a Chinese style.

The 3 examples in "Dragon" have a Chinese sense to them in having formalised borders, background diaper and Chinese emblems used as well as drawing on Mon type emblems. I love 102 as it's so unusual.

The Maki-e panel is on a bottle with a very Chinese style to the formalised borders.

However seeing that the Chinese were happier to incorporate Japanese elements makes things more complicated as I would have otherwise felt that any Japanese elements mixed with a Chinese style were more likely Japanese produced.

I might have to start collecting modern items where "Made in China" marks make it far less complicated  Wink

Regards, Adrian.
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2017, 07:09:49 pm »


I am wondering where you found the date "1789" for a closing of the Imperial workshop?  I have the catalog "Cloisonné - Chinese Enamels from the Yuan, Ming, and Qing Dynasties" from the Exhibition held at the Bard Graduate school January 26 – April 17, 2011

https://www.bgc.bard.edu/gallery/exhibitions/27/cloisonn

In it they have a chapter dedicated to the Imperial patronage of the arts.  It explains that there is very little written record pertaining specifically to cloisonne, but from the records they list "workshops and manufactures in the province of Guangdong, in the cities of Yangzhou (Jiangsu province), Beijing (Heibei province), and Jiujiang (Jiangxi province), among others, each of which displayed different styles and characteristics." 


Dear Tom B,

Thank you so much for sharing the info and video, I have more respect for the cloisone bottles after watching the video, it takes a lot patience and process to accomplish a cloisone ware.

The date I provided for the closing time was quoted from Tom's comments, Maybe Tom can provide the source, at same time I will do some research as well.

Best,

Steven

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Wattana
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« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2017, 09:51:03 pm »


The date I provided for the closing time was quoted from Tom's comments, Maybe Tom can provide the source, at same time I will do some research as well.



Dear Steven,

If you have Volume 6 of 'A Treasury of Chinese Snuff Bottles', it includes a lengthy introduction listing Palace records and other contemporary accounts connected with Imperial and related workshops, quoting sources. (My 'Chronology in Perspective' chart was created from these accounts.) In there it states that the Imperial workshop responsible for cloisonne production was closed in 1789. It does not say if and when they were re-opened.

Whether that is right or wrong, this is what the records indicate.

Tom 
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« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2017, 07:32:40 pm »

Dear Steven & Tom,

Thank you for clearing that up.  I am not trying yo dispute the information, but I recall certain Palace workshops in Beijing being closed.  I think that they mentioned that the work could be done at other locations, so no need for duplication.  The Beijing workshop for enamel on metal produced both painted and cloisonne enamels, so they may have closed down in order to allow all the best artists in that medium to be together at the Yuanmingyuan or one of the other Imperial workshops.

To everyone interested in this topic, I found some remarkable small cloisonne objects:

A RARE PAIR OF IMPERIAL CLOISONNÉ ENAMEL AND GILT-BRONZE TURQUOISE-GROUND SCROLL ENDS
Qianlong four-character marks and of the period
A mere 5.1 cm Long
[/color]
Sold for £10,800 (US$ 14,245) inc. premium
FINE CHINESE ART  13 May 2010, LONDON, NEW BOND STREET

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17817/lot/395/



« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 07:35:26 am by Tom B. » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #93 on: October 17, 2017, 11:32:46 pm »

I did some some more searching and found some tiny cloisonne work circa 1780-1820.  I never thought to look for cloisonne archer's rings, but I did find several:

LOT 118A CHINESE CLOISONNÉ ENAMELLED ARCHER’S RING. QING DYNASTY, 18TH C. THE EXTERIOR DECORATED WITH A LANDSCAPE

sold by CHISWICK AUCTIONS  London 05 May 2015
Hammer price:  Auctioneer has chosen not to publish the price of this lot

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/chiswick-auctions/catalogue-id-srchis10123/lot-db083de7-ec23-4bfc-988e-a47b0109bb27


« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 03:09:55 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #94 on: October 17, 2017, 11:50:03 pm »

CLOISONNÉ ENAMEL ARCHER'S RING. CHINA, AROUND 1800, HEIGHT 2.5 CM:

Auctioneer KOLLER AUKTIONEN AGA Zürich 02 Jun 2015
Hammer price: (1,400 Swiss Francs) Auctioneer has chosen not to publish the price of this lot


https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/koller/catalogue-id-koller10013/lot-9cb5a37d-4da0-460c-8b20-a4960082f91f

« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 03:06:28 pm by Tom B. » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #95 on: October 18, 2017, 03:05:51 am »

Dear Tom B.,

     First, 'Duplicity' means lying, actually. I am assuming you meant 'duplication' [of efforts].

     Second, you've posted loads of really beautiful small cloisonne objects. I'd want to see their provenances, because, maybe it's me, but the same workshops which could reproduce ['and improve'] cloisonne snuff bottles, could presumably do the same with other objects.

    And we know that when the PRC, in a wonderful act of cultural preservation in the period 1950-1955, took all the masters of arts who were still alive, gave them students and materials and put them to work, in order to save China's cultural patrimony (thanks to which we have our modern IPSBs, and wonderful lacquerware and wonderful glass and enamelled wares, etc.), they DID reproduce artworks from the past, but to the best of their ability; and thanks to technological advances, they were able to vastly improve on the delicacy of the work they could produce.

    It is the same with very modern carved/molded and enamelled porcelain snuff bottles of the period 1990-2005. The potters in Jingdezhen were producing these wares that were so OTT compared to the same type of wares produced ca. 1700-1850, that it was extremely obvious.
 
    Real craftsmen artists, when their abilities are freed from control, political or technological, want to 'soar' with their work.  They don't want to just copy stuff from previous artists' hands.

    Best,
Joey
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« Reply #96 on: October 18, 2017, 09:30:22 am »

Dear Joey,

Thank you for catching that error in my vocabulary.

In my opinion the scroll ends are definitely Imperial M&P, since scroll ends are mentioned on the list of miscellaneous household objects in the inventory of the Imperial Storage records.   I now remember having seen an example on an important scroll at the preview of an auction being held during one of the past Asia Week New York auctions.

The archer's rings sold by Koller in Zürich Switzerland, Chiswick UK, and one other sold by Skinner all have good-for-me patinas.  There are precious few of this early type that have come on the market.  Their price level is below the limitations of the big auction houses, so they will remain reasonable for now. 

Best regards,

Tom B.
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« Reply #97 on: October 19, 2017, 05:28:30 pm »

Dear Tom B.,

     You could well be correct, in which case I will have to accept that they had a higher technological skill at that time then I understood.
But I still need provenances. Of course, many of those you quote are definitely above board, and they can't ALL be wrong.

   Best,
Joey
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« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2018, 09:02:38 am »

Dear all,

I decided to use this old thread to post a Cloisone Bottle of mine for your input and comments.

Inn Bok


* IMG_3705.JPG (113.13 KB, 454x605 - viewed 16 times.)

* IMG_3706.JPG (112.41 KB, 454x605 - viewed 10 times.)

* IMG_3707.JPG (54.45 KB, 605x454 - viewed 10 times.)

* IMG_3708.JPG (69.1 KB, 605x454 - viewed 10 times.)
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« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2018, 09:05:29 am »

Sorry I forgot to mention that both faces of the bottle have the same " shou " motif.


Inn Bok
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