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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 17, 2017, 04:51:24 am
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Cloisone Bottle To Share ..

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Tom B.
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« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2017, 12:04:58 pm »

A 12.8 cm High, 18th Century Imperial Qianlong Mark & Period Cloisonne 'Champions Vase' that was sold for circa $377,700.00 US in November 2009 by Byrnes Auction UK.  The first image is the auctioneer and the 3rd & 4th images are from a later exhibition held by Eskenazi, the world's most famous dealer in Chinese Works of Art:

https://www.eskenazi.co.uk/en-gb/exhibitions/early-chinese-metalwork

« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 07:32:11 pm by Tom B. » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2017, 12:28:49 pm »

And finally an 18th Century Qianlong Mark & Period snuff bottle in the collection of the Metropolitan Museum NY.  It measures 7.0 cm High including Stopper X 5.9 cm Wide X 1.9 cm Deep.


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« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2017, 01:32:56 pm »

Dear Tom B.,

     I'll start with the last one, since I held it in my hand and know the 'secret history'. It is NOT Qianlong period. It is Mao Zedong period. But the donor was VERY generous [and would be much less so, if crossed], and if he said it was Qianlong, it was Qianlong.

     Just as a wonderful long-necked small vase by Ye Bengqi, which had to have the neck removed, became a Qianlong Imperial mark and period brushwasher, when donated by the Bernats of Bernat Knitting Mills fame to the Museum of Fine Art - Boston. I've no doubt they bought it as Qianlong. But it's Republic of China.

     If you have my pamphlet with the 3 enamelled Schoen bottles which were featured in Lilla Perry's book in 1960, and which I re-united for a few years in my collection, 2 from Belle Schoen in Mar.1988; and the third from the Bernat Collection auction in Sotheby's HK, 15.11.1988. The one from the Bernat Collection where it went after Belle Schoen sold it in 1963 to pay for her late father's funeral (she told me so herself, in 1988), was thought to be Qianlong; as was the enamelled porcelain with the little girl and the dog; both were Republic.

    I discussed cloisonne with a number of serious experts, and there are many mid-late 19th C./ early 20th C. wares being touted as 18th C. and even earlier.

     In a different context, but the same issue, I've had facinating discussions about Guangxu and Republic porcelain done in Kangxi style (because, among other things, the Dowager Empress LIKED Kangxi ceramics) and being touted as genuine Kangxi.

     Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Steven
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« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2017, 06:28:50 pm »

Dear all,

Thanks you all so much for all the discussion!

Its fascinating to see all the comments, we agree and disagree like we always do. Cheesy Cheesy Hopefully the discussion can lead us closer to the truth. Cool

I tend to agree that bottle is Chinese origin if the bottle below are all chinese, But its any chance that all the bottles below are Japanese origin? or with the influence of Japanese ? I have to say that when I look those bottle again, they all have some decoration close to Japanese art style. Maybe I am going too far.....But it might be a fun thing to be discussed.

As far as the last bottle Tom B shared, I am with Joey tend to agree that the bottle is not genuine Qianlong bottle, maybe we can find more evidence when the  time passing by, or approved we are wrong.

Thanks and Keep it going...

Steven   



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« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 09:58:56 pm by Steven » Report Spam   Logged

Tom B.
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« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2017, 06:55:47 pm »

Dear Joey,

Yes, I agree to disagree with you.   Wink

Your discussion with experts about the Qianlong Mark & Period cloisonne Snuff Bottle in the Metropolitan Museum was undoubtedly prior to the newest research conducted with the advantage of archaeological examples taken from various graves unearthed around Beijing in the course of the massive expansion of that city.  The big three auction houses are using them to date bottles that were previously thought to be Republic era.  The one thing that all experts agree on is you can't argue with examples from a scientifically correct archaeological dig. 

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Tom B.
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« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2017, 09:48:33 pm »

Dear All,

Really interesting discussion going on here. And thanks Steven for including my two bottles in your last post!
I do not know enough about Japanese arts and crafts to respond to Matthias' assertion that all are products of Japan. However, most of the rest of you are saying that the cloisonne bottles are Chinese. Logic suggests to me that this is so, based on the fact that this technique was already well established and perfected by the time the snuff bottle era began.

So whether they be as early as Ming dynasty or as late as Republic era, I believe all the images posted here are of Chinese origin.

Best,
Tom L
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Joey
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« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2017, 03:51:27 am »

Dear Tom B.,

      Yes, we can agree to disagree in a friendly and collegial fashion.  Grin

BUT, who told you that there were scientifically correct archaeological digs going on in the areas where there has been 'great expansion of Beijing'?
The reality is far from that.

    The excavator for the developer discovers a grave while digging, calls the developer who is paying him (if he doesn't call his cousin Weiqing first, to give him a chance to take whatever is of value, out first!  Roll Eyes Grin), and they 'get rid of the evidence' ASAP.

     Then stuff shows up in the market, and if the developer is at all socially minded, he gives some stuff to the Antiquities and Culture Dept. authorities, and apologises that 'the workers' destroyed everything before he could stop them. And a 'brown envelope' for their trouble. And the construction goes on apace...

     Best,
Joey


Dear Joey,

Yes, I agree to disagree with you.   Wink

Your discussion with experts about the Qianlong Mark & Period cloisonne Snuff Bottle in the Metropolitan Museum was undoubtedly prior to the newest research conducted with the advantage of archaeological examples taken from various graves unearthed around Beijing in the course of the massive expansion of that city.  The big three auction houses are using them to date bottles that were previously thought to be Republic era.  The one thing that all experts agree on is you can't argue with examples from a scientifically correct archaeological dig. 

Best regards,

Tom B.
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Mat
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« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2017, 04:31:14 am »


I do not know enough about Japanese arts and crafts to respond to Matthias' assertion that all are products of Japan. However, most of the rest of you are saying that the cloisonne bottles are Chinese. Logic suggests to me that this is so, based on the fact that this technique was already well established and perfected by the time the snuff bottle era began.

So whether they be as early as Ming dynasty or as late as Republic era, I believe all the images posted here are of Chinese origin.

Best,
Tom L

Dear Tom,
the reason why I believe that at least the bottles that have the "goldstone" enamel (or mica) are Japanese is that this technique is a Japanese invention. As far as I know, it was Namikawa Yasuyuki of Kyoto (1845-1927) who first introduced it to cloisonne in the late 19th c. It was then quickly adapted by other, minor Japanese workshops, but, as far as I can say, never by Chinese. It is a telltale sign that an item is Japanese when it has goldstone enamel... So if Steven's bottle (and the one in the Chinese auction) is Chinese, it would be quite an exception to this rule. I have disussed the issue in the past with an expert on Japanese and Chinese cloisonne, and she also stated that goldstone was not used by the Chinese... The other bottles I would include into the group because they have similar shape, bottom and style... However, this is just an idea, of course I could be wrong...
Regards,
Matthias
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Rube
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« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2017, 04:41:44 am »

Mat,
Thanks for sharing that information.
Steven,
I see your point about the bottles exhibiting Japanese aesthetic, I'd guess definitely yours and the last one. Your bottle is fantastic! #942 from Bob Stevens (late 19th-20th cen.) is also similar.
Cheers,
Rube
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« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2017, 04:42:19 am »

Dear Matthias,

I can see your logic. So the examples with mica flakes in the enamel would have to be dated 1845 onwards.

When it came to copying Chinese artefacts to meet market demand, I think they would have had no problems replicating the simpler motifs seen on the Marakovic bottles posted here (which lack the mica). All I am saying is that those bottles may well be older, and Chinese in origin.  

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Tom
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Joey
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« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2017, 06:22:47 am »

Dear Tom,

     If it has 'goldstone' in the cloisonne, I understood that it would have to be Japanese, but also later than 1880 (Namikawa Yasuyuki of Kyoto  was born 1845). Before 1880, Japanese cloisonne looks very much like Chinese cloisonne of the period 1790-1880: dull colours and a bit boring.

     The German chemist Gottfried Wagener, one of many foreign specialists hired by the Japanese government to help introduce new technologies into Japan after the Meiji Restoration in 1868, brought further advances based on the Owari cloisonné techniques. 

   Best,
Joey
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Tom B.
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« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2017, 05:03:59 pm »

Is it possible that only some of the bottles are Japanese copies of a Chinese original?

Cloisonne Snuff Bottle 5.6 cm High as Chinese circa 1780-1850 from Robert Hall's Sales Catalog 2011:

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« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2017, 06:43:04 pm »

The following images are of a 48.9 cm High X 35.6 cm Wide Qianlong Period Moon Flask from the Avery Brundage Collection in the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco, California. 

The first is an image of the complete object.

The second image is approximately actual size of the center medallion - 11 cm wide.

The third image is a comparison of the 5.6 cm High Cloisonne Snuff Bottle from the Blanche Exstein collection sold as circa 1800-1880 for $1,293.00 in March 2002 by Christie's NY.

The last is a macro of the center medallion to show the intricate work. 

If the Imperial Chinese Cloisonne workers were capable of such intricate work on a large vase, there would be no hindrance to creating an equal or better cloisonne on a snuff bottle.

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Tom B.

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« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2017, 07:26:46 pm »

The following are images of a 30.5 cm High 18th century (Qianlong) Figure of an Elephant with Two Miniature Vases in the Brooklyn Museum New York


https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/20188

The first a view of the complete figure.

(The rest of the images are in approximately actual size on my monitor.)

The second is the top double gourd vase.

The third is the top half of the double gourd vase circa 5.8 cm High

The fourth is the bottom half circa 4.4 cm High.

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« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2017, 07:29:58 pm »

The next images are of the lower vase.

The first is the whole vase - circa 8.5 cm High.

The second is the lower section - circa 6.0 cm High.

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« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2017, 07:33:48 pm »

The last images are from the elephants saddle and blanket.

A 6.7 cm High section.

And next a 5.0 cm High section. 

That intricate work could just easily be applied to a snuff bottle.

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Tom B.

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« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2017, 03:15:10 am »

Is it possible that only some of the bottles are Japanese copies of a Chinese original?

Cloisonne Snuff Bottle 5.6 cm High as Chinese circa 1780-1850 from Robert Hall's Sales Catalog 2011:


Dear Tom B.,
I cannot be sure of course, but the style with butterflies and a not so organized (sorry, I do not know how to express this properly in English) decoration of freely arranged blossoms and leaves is very common in Japanese standard quality cloisonne of the late 19th c. See just a random example in the link below. My impression is that it is not at all common, in contrast, on Chinese cloisonne, which has usually a more organized decoration, often with lotus scrolls...
In the first years of the production of  Japanese cloisonne, ca. 1850- 1870, they copied indeed Chinese style, but of the Ming dynasty, often even with a Ming mark on the bottom. But later on they turned to Japanese style, which has the characteristics I tried to describe above.
Of course it could be possible that there was a Chinese workshop which made cloisonne bottles that were different in style than what can be seen on other 18th and 19th c Chinese cloisonne items, but I tend to doubt that...

Regards, Matthias

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=901604001&objectId=766580&partId=1
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« Reply #77 on: October 13, 2017, 09:12:58 am »

Dear Matthias,

A very similar example and one that should be shown to the members of the ICSBS.  Between this vase substantiating the motif and the mica enamel on some of the bottles of this type, I would think a revision of attribution is necessary.  Due to the early assumption that all snuff bottles were made in China, there are still some Japanese lacquer snuff bottles being described as "Chinese" in Museum collections.

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Tom B.
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« Reply #78 on: October 13, 2017, 10:01:22 am »

Thanks much Tom for sharing all the info!!

I was doing some research last night, trying to organize a little before posting more.

I tend to agree all the bottles here are chinese origin.

Here are a couple of small bottles from Japan and dated 19th, as I can tell the style is different from what we have here now.

I will do some more research on the Qianlong nian zhi Cloisone Bottles, I believe that they are a few out there. we can discuss a little further.

stay tuned

Steven


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« Reply #79 on: October 13, 2017, 10:20:29 am »

From my understanding that Japanese cloisone bottles turn out to be designed more sophisticated and detail oriented which just like the Laque Burgauté bottle they have, While chinese cloisone bottles have more simple design. Its just my observation, Waiting for your inputs.

Best,

Steven

 
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