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October 17, 2017, 04:51:57 am
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Cloisone Bottle To Share ..

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Author Topic: Cloisone Bottle To Share ..  (Read 801 times)
Rube
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« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2017, 01:36:09 pm »

Greetings Everyone,
Got a few days on my hands, so I'm going to post more than my usual amount of bottles:

I'd like to share a cloisonné bottle I purchased from Eldred's about 10 years ago.  After reading several threads pertaining to this art form, I've learned a lot.  This bottle measures 2 1/2" WITH stopper.  I think colors are too bright to be of any age, it's not simple enough in design, and that the mark on the bottom is spurious.  Would members agree that this bottle is aged probably 1950-2009? I'm most interested to hear comments about patina.

Cheers,

Rube.


* FullSizeRender cloisonne 2.1.jpg (106.68 KB, 480x640 - viewed 16 times.)

* FullSizeRender cloisonne 2.2.jpg (83.11 KB, 480x640 - viewed 6 times.)

* FullSizeRender cloisonne 2.3.jpg (124.38 KB, 480x640 - viewed 11 times.)

* FullSizeRender cloisonne 2.5.jpg (77.98 KB, 480x640 - viewed 13 times.)
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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

Steven
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« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2017, 02:22:24 pm »

Dear Rube,

Thank you for sharing!

I am always interested in the cloisone bottles, and do own a couple of old ones. I would like to agree with you on the date of the beautiful bottle according the colors and design of the bottle.

To narrow down a little on the date, I might put 1950-1980 on it, since the later ones are not that well done as yours. I have seen a group of similar bottles sold on reputed acution houses described as qing period. I personally seriously doubt it, but its just my 2 cents worth.Smiley

Best,

Steven

 
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Joey
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« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2017, 02:53:44 pm »

Steven,  you took the words (and dates!  Grin) out of my mouth.
Yes, Rube,  I'd say 1950-1980 as well. And very nicely done.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Rube
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« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2017, 02:57:29 pm »

Joey and Steven,

Thanks so much for your replies!  It was described as 19th century when I bought it, but I hadn't done any research whatsoever, just liked the design.  Now I'll be on the look out for an older example, which, thanks to the comments on the Forum, I think I might be able to spot in the future.  Can anyone comment on the patina on the base?  Is that natural, or fabricated?

Cheers,

Rube
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Joey
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« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2017, 03:01:21 pm »

Dear Rube,

     It looks to be copper. How long does copper take to turn green?
Faked patina. Nice 'apocryphal' Qianlong mark (apocryphal=fake).  Grin Roll Eyes
Best,
Joey
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Rube
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« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2017, 03:16:54 pm »

Joey,

"apocryphal" is one of my favorite words I've learned here!

Cheers,

Rube.
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« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2017, 02:33:48 pm »

Glad to see the post again.Smiley

I did have a chance to acquire another cloisone bottle a while back. was trying to do some research on it before posting it. But it seems that I can't find much info on any similar bottles.

The bottle's shape and design is very similar to some of 19th bottles, but the enamel being used are not so common. it looks much like the golden sand.  Its 6 cm high, I can tell it has some age on it when I handle it, but not quite sure if it belongs to those 19th bottles or not, your comments are welcome..

Thanks!

Steven


* 811A9825.jpg (163.43 KB, 1000x1394 - viewed 24 times.)

* 811A9826.jpg (183.63 KB, 1000x1342 - viewed 16 times.)

* 811A9826_2.jpg (148.39 KB, 1000x933 - viewed 16 times.)

* 811A9827.jpg (213.7 KB, 1000x1013 - viewed 12 times.)
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Rube
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« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2017, 03:39:15 pm »

Steven,

What a beautiful bottle!  I love the abstract simplicity in it's design. A great example showing true patina and wear.

Congrats,

Rube.
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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

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« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2017, 04:29:20 pm »

Steven, the use of mica flakes points very much towards a Japanese origin of your nice bottle.
Regards,
Matthias
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Joey
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« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2017, 05:11:22 pm »

Dear Matthias,

     Now YOU took the words out of my mouth! Last time it was Steven...  Roll Eyes Grin

Dear Steven,

     Matthias is correct, and I'd date your bottle to ca. 1890-1920, based on the superior Japanese technology (compared to Chinese at that time) in cloisonne enamels.

    Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2017, 12:54:44 am »

Steven,

The colouring, and detailing around neck and foot are consistent with older Chinese cloisonne bottles. I can't comment on the mica flakes, as I am not familiar with them. Without the mica flakes I would have dated this bottle to 1820-1900.

I agree that Rube's bottle is c.1950-1980, or even newer.

Tom
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Tom
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Mat
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« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2017, 02:56:25 am »

Tom, I wonder if there are actually more Japanese Cloisonne bottles around than one would expect, there are a few examples in the Marakovic collection with a similar flat bottom that, if they were not snuff bottles, I would have certainly identified as Japanese cloisonne because of the enamels used and the decoration style...

http://www.e-yaji.com/Marakovic/photo.php?photo=1916&exhibition=3&ee_lang=eng&u=4,376

http://www.e-yaji.com/Marakovic/photo.php?photo=1915&exhibition=3&ee_lang=eng&u=6,377

http://www.e-yaji.com/Marakovic/photo.php?photo=1914&exhibition=3&ee_lang=eng&u=4,378

Regards,
Matthias
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Joey
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« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2017, 03:01:08 am »

Dear Tom,

      While I agree Steven's bottle looks 'old', the technology problem of enameling very detailed work in cloisonne on a miniature piece like a snuff bottle, would in my opinion, mean it couldn't be earlier than the 1870s at earliest. And at that time, Japanese technology was superior to Chinese, simply because the Japanese had happily adopted Western technology.

    I've a small collection of Japanese cloisonne pieces, and it could be as early as 1870s, but more probably 1890-1920.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2017, 04:10:59 am »

Hi Matthias,

These are exactly the types of bottle I had in mind when I commented on Steven's example.

Dear Joey,

From what I understand, cloisonne' production was already in full swing at the Palace workshops before the snuff bottle era began. It only stopped when the workshop was closed down in 1789. Production was later resumed by private workshops, sometime after 1820, hence my suggested date range.

I agree that they possibly lacked the skills to produce intricate designs on so small an object as a snuff bottle, but these older bottles have comparatively simple designs and motifs. 

Best,
Tom
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« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2017, 06:48:33 am »

Here is another bottle of this type, again with mica I think and very similar to one of the Marakovic bottles. I really believe all of these are Japanese and then certainly late 19th, early 20th c...

http://auction.artron.net/paimai-art21920887/

Ragards,
Matthias
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Joey
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« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2017, 06:56:37 am »

Dear Tom,
 
     You are right that the Chinese were doing superb cloisonne and also champleve enamels early on; even in Ming. But when they got down to really small objects, their lack of exact firing temps. meant that 99.9% of wares were destroyed in the kiln, because they were just too small.

     There simply was no way to produce the very small objects. If you look at  # 77 in my 1987 catalogue, I'm honestly not even sure that it is as early as I dated it. It could be 1780-1830, but might equally well be 1850-1880. And there is probably a better chance of the latter dates being correct. 

     Best,
Joey


Hi Matthias,

These are exactly the types of bottle I had in mind when I commented on Steven's example.

Dear Joey,

From what I understand, cloisonne' production was already in full swing at the Palace workshops before the snuff bottle era began. It only stopped when the workshop was closed down in 1789. Production was later resumed by private workshops, sometime after 1820, hence my suggested date range.

I agree that they possibly lacked the skills to produce intricate designs on so small an object as a snuff bottle, but these older bottles have comparatively simple designs and motifs. 

Best,
Tom
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Tom B.
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« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2017, 11:07:41 am »

Dear Members,

Matthias, you saved me a lot of work by posting those links to the Marakovic Collection. I agree that Steven's bottle was likely made in the same workshop as them.  If the mica bottles were made in Japan, then they are all of Japanese origin. I would be interested in the latest research in a book published in 2013:

Chang Gang 常罡 2013. Sanghai yizhu: Qiasi falang biyanhu yanjiu 《滄海遺珠﹕掐絲琺瑯鼻煙壺研究》. Beijing: SDX Joint Publishing Co.

Dear Joey,

I do need to clear up a statement you made about Chinese cloisonne capabilities:

Dear Tom,
 
     You are right that the Chinese were doing superb cloisonne and also champleve enamels early on; even in Ming. But when they got down to really small objects, their lack of exact firing temps. meant that 99.9% of wares were destroyed in the kiln, because they were just too small.

     There simply was no way to produce the very small objects. If you look at  # 77 in my 1987 catalogue, I'm honestly not even sure that it is as early as I dated it. It could be 1780-1830, but might equally well be 1850-1880. And there is probably a better chance of the latter dates being correct. 

     Best,
Joey


Hi Matthias,

These are exactly the types of bottle I had in mind when I commented on Steven's example.

Dear Joey,

From what I understand, cloisonne' production was already in full swing at the Palace workshops before the snuff bottle era began. It only stopped when the workshop was closed down in 1789. Production was later resumed by private workshops, sometime after 1820, hence my suggested date range.

I agree that they possibly lacked the skills to produce intricate designs on so small an object as a snuff bottle, but these older bottles have comparatively simple designs and motifs. 

Best,
Tom

I will post some images to demonstrate the intricate cloisonne work produced in China since the mid 15th century:

A 15th Century Cloisonne Dish 13.5 cm Diameter possibly Xuande Period sold for circa $51,570 in Dec. 2012 by Sotheby's Paris.  First a macro and the second in approximately actual size on my computer screen:

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Tom B.

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« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2017, 11:08:55 am »

Forgot the second image  Embarrassed

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Tom B.

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« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2017, 11:13:55 am »

A 15th Century Cloisonne Stemcup 13.0 cm High sold for circa $21,067 in June 2003 by Sotheby's London in actual size and a circa 6 cm high (snuff size) portion of it:

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Tom B.

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« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2017, 11:19:34 am »

A 9.5 cm Wide Wanli Mark & Period Cloisonne Box and in actual size


* Cloisonne Box 09.5cmW Wanli Mk+Per (4).jpg (119.69 KB, 800x729 - viewed 6 times.)

* Cloisonne Box 09.5cmW Wanli Mk+Per (4)actual size.jpg (15.04 KB, 240x219 - viewed 4 times.)
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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