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Cloisone Bottle To Share ..

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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2014, 12:47:11 pm »

Dear George,
if you are referring to snuff bottles only, then I can't answer you. Instead, if you are referring to molded Qianlong mark on any kind of ware, then surely they did start under the reign, not later.
Dear David, I am not sure that old marks of this type was less sharp than the recent fake. I think the opposite indeed, I mean that I think that a fake has a less precise mark than the original ones.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2014, 04:42:22 pm »

Dear Yt,

Please don't say that!  Smiley I am the one that is learning and thank you for taking the time to post an interesting bottle puzzle for me to solve and learn from.

I will skim through some more of the books that I have but did not have a chance to read yet. So, far I was only able to find a few bottles (from books I read) that are in the rough shape but still too different, in my opinion.

With your encouragement, I will "Show my skill with an ax, in front of master craftsman" then...  Grin

Right now, I tentatively think it is not a really old one (pre 1830 -using Joey's as a reference point in time and skill). The bubbles don't look like any of Steven's book or Joey's. Theirs are very fine and not concentrated close to the metal wires. Although, yours do not look as obviously under filled as the one George posted, it still looks under filled to me. It just might be a better material with flux that flows better than older material, so it adheres and looks smoother. It feels like missing one more round of filling/heat/sanding.

The bottle shape is too flat at the sides and too decorated, compared to the references from Joey's, Seven's, and some of Moss's Snuff Bottle of Chiina. It also looks more like a hard stone shape, then a more smooth/rounder cloisonné. So, technically too advanced, based on my limited knowledge, I will cross out 1830-1880.

The 2 colored element of the composite flower (pink/white) petal I think pushes it to later times. But, don't know enough yet, except the old ones tend to have only one color per compartment... Moss dates those with bicolor shading to 1800/1850-1920... but I think it is too much of an advance for your bottle where they did not bother to fill completely, so I am going to say 1950 or latter. If they took the time to fill and polish once more so only fine little bubbles are left, then it is more likely of the same class as Hugh's more recent ones (274, 275, 279).

To support it is of 1950 or latter, I will add:
the wire compartment might be even from prefab pieces where the maker just twist a little to make it look different.
the border design don't make sense and not like the ones shown on the 3 references by a mile, and the border element is so large that it is less a border, but more a crowd into the key visual region.

Then the inside (blue enamel, bare, a mess of left over enamel/polish), dimension  and additional photos will also help in figuring this out.


Another track to consider is whether it is faked to look old. I don't know enough yet how the enamel runs. But, I can kind of see a faker getting a newly made bottle, then spraying it with acid. The way the underfill around the edge of the wires, looks odd as they tend to concentrate on one edge irregardless of whether it is a compartment, or not.

Like, if you lay it flat and then spray it with water, those spots feels like where water will catch. Then if acid, then it over etches it.

Then perhaps they power wash with slurry or air blast with softer "sand" to smooth it.

My very tentative strings of thought, as I don't have enough information or knowledge to narrow or start more strings.

Warm regards and for your enjoyment,
David





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« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2014, 05:18:23 pm »

Dear Giovanni, 

 Cheesy I was just thinking of sending you a message. One of the used book I bought "Chinese Art: Bronzes, Jade, Sculpture, Ceramic" by Daisy Lion-Goldschmidt and Jean-Claude Moreau-Gobard, arrived today and have an interesting inscription.

Dated New Yory, 21 agosto 1983, .... and a signature that looks like Giovanni to me.  Did I end up with an old gift that you gifted? I think agosto is august in Italian? The other words also look Italian to me.

Thank you, I will take your opinion as it was just a assumption on my part, so will cross out in my mind that old marks are not sharp.

One thing that reheating by torch on a carving or stamp can do, is that it can hide the bad stamp indentation or carving. I tried this out in the past on wax for both indent and carve, so when I looked at the stamp on George's post. It visually reminds me of that.

I also had sanded a cut steel U-beam when making a winch base (1/2 inch thick and 3 inch wide that I cut to segments by a diamond blade circular grinder) before, so part of the way to smooth out the grinding cut mark and to make it safe to touch and look good is to scrape it, rough sand, scrape it, torch it, fine sand, torch it and polish/buff.

Adding these 2 experiences, I can kind of visualize a modern bottle stamp going through this to either hide a bad carve/stamp or to hide machine marks. Hence, I made the statements.

Kindly,
David
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2014, 11:21:28 pm »

Dear YT,

Your bottle look right to me, Congratulations!

Please share the base the mouth with us once you have a chance.Smiley

Steven
Dear Steven,

Thank you. Attached are photos of it's base and mouth.


Dear David,

The bottle height is 6cm. Your naming it a puzzle bottle is quite adept to me cause I am as loss. I always assumes Denis and Marakovic's cloisonné bottles are the top bar until Joey pointed out the later dates. Assumption can be quite dangerous when I know so little Huh


Cheers,
YT


* cloisonne1.jpg (100.82 KB, 443x600 - viewed 26 times.)

* cloisonne2.jpg (58.7 KB, 431x400 - viewed 18 times.)

* cloisonne3.jpg (67.81 KB, 449x400 - viewed 19 times.)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 11:45:25 pm by YT » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2014, 12:17:11 am »


YT,

I have seen a lot of cloisonne over the years with my parents interest in collecting oriental antiques.  This looks like an old cloisonne piece to me. 

Charll
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2014, 12:59:44 am »

Thank you Charll.

YT
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« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2014, 02:35:13 am »

Dear YT,

Thank you, then we can learn, guess, proof/disproof carefully together Smiley it's a good idea to make wild assumptions from different angle, then prove/disprove each very critically. I think it helped me to learn quickly/deeply on whatever I got interested in.

These bottles are rare, in the important or fine auction catalog that I have (~10). I only saw 3 with composite flowers.
One a hulu lot 5 that looks too perfect June 1990 Sotheby's in London. One was not sold with a Qian Long year made carved mark, and the other (lot 194) for 460 pounds in London Dec. 6th, 1994  by Sotheby's. The color seems close to yours, with the large and small holes.

But, it is rounded form, 9cm tall, does not have two colors in a compartment and seems to not have the underfill concentrated on one side of the wires.

A key data point is still what the inside looks like.

I am not convinced one way or the other as the double color in a compartment and underfill concentrating on one edge feels odd to me. But, I don't have enough knowledge or experience to not defer to Steven + Charll (2 experts).

Kind Regards,
David
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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2014, 04:12:47 am »


YT,

I have seen a lot of cloisonne over the years with my parents interest in collecting oriental antiques.  This looks like an old cloisonne piece to me. 

Charll

Although I have not handled many, I agree with Charll that this has all the characteristics of an old bottle..
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2014, 07:03:51 am »

Hi YT,

I have been watching this thread, undecided as to whether your bottle is modern with artificial aging, or indeed an old one. I am inclined to agree with Charll that it looks to belong to an older group. But the two-tone gradation from white to pink within one 'cell' that David mentioned bothers me.

Here are two older cloisonne bottles for reference. You will see that the designs are very simple yet delicate, and each cell has only one solid colour. Despite having some age, it is interesting that the 'experts' still give them a wide date range - both are dated 1790-1900.  In short, it is still hard to pinpoint dating of cloisonne bottles.

Tom


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* IMGP0879-lo.jpg (175.65 KB, 600x750 - viewed 23 times.)

* IMGP0881-lo.jpg (149.28 KB, 600x750 - viewed 8 times.)
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2014, 09:52:35 am »

Dear David and Tom,

Different colours in 'single cell' is seen as shading.
Please take a look at this QianLong period and mark Cloisonné bottle.
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20309/lot/55/

The Indian lotus is described as, "It is remarkable for its carefully 'drawn' wires and the lovely 'shading' of the enamels in the lotus flowers (achieved by using three distinctly different colours)"

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2014, 11:45:20 am »

Charll,
    Are you referring to the bottle posted in #23?  If so, I would definitely give it an early dating,
 ca. 1770-1830. If it is YT's, he definitely has a fine example.
Best,
 Joey






YT,

I have seen a lot of cloisonne over the years with my parents interest in collecting oriental antiques.  This looks like an old cloisonne piece to me. 

Charll
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« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2014, 12:05:30 pm »

Dear David,
no I have never signed a book on Chinese art.
Dear all, cloisonné is a mistery to me and I am learning a lot from this thread, so thank you all very much.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2014, 01:19:09 pm »

Dear YT,

With 2 more expert blessings, congrats! I am glad for you that it is an early old ones, and rare to see at auction.

I will file away that mental image, and think more on why there is a concentration on one edge of the wire. And one day when I get to see some bottle or antique up close, I will take a very careful look on the interface of the shading.

I wonder if the shading is done with 2 materials or if it is 1 material with pigments, and if it is shaded all the way down or just a thin surface layer. Can you tell on your bottle?

Happy Regards,
David
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« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2014, 01:21:10 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

It would have been fun if that was yours.  Cheesy

Warm Regards,
David
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« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2014, 01:29:00 pm »

Despite having some age, it is interesting that the 'experts' still give them a wide date range - both are dated 1790-1900.  In short, it is still hard to pinpoint dating of cloisonne bottles.

Tom

Yes, good point and I have noticed this as well..  Not a real big fan of cloisonne, but going to order a couple books for future use..
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« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2014, 01:45:10 pm »

Hello Tom,

Your two bottle looks like it was made by the same craftsman as Joey's and Steven's 941, 942!

The same body shape and top/bottom border sequence and decoration on the neck.

Even the bubbling size/distribution and smears where one color went over to the other looks the similar.

Why can it not be narrowed down to a similar age as Joey's? Or Steven's earlier one (941)?
Do you know what the inside looks like? Is it bare metal?

Thank you for sharing the 2 nice bottles, and opportunity for me to try the 3 second glances.

Warm Regards,
David
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« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2014, 10:00:15 pm »


Different colours in 'single cell' is seen as shading.
Please take a look at this QianLong period and mark Cloisonné bottle.
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20309/lot/55/


Hi YT,

Good point. Thanks for pointing this one out.

Tom
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« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2014, 10:40:50 pm »

Quote
Charll,  Are you referring to the bottle posted in #23?  If so, I would definitely give it an early dating,  ca. 1770-1830. If it is YT's, he definitely has a fine example.  Joey

Joey, Yes I was referring to YT's bottle.  Charll
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« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2014, 10:49:18 pm »

Dear all,

I didn't expect this bottle to cause a stir when I posted it and was happy to learn so much in the midst. Thank you. Grin

Cheers,
YT

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« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2014, 12:44:20 pm »

Dear YT,
    Thank you for posting it. It is wonderful to see such a fine example.
Best,
Happy Hanuka,
   Joey




Dear all,

I didn't expect this bottle to cause a stir when I posted it and was happy to learn so much in the midst. Thank you. Grin

Cheers,
YT


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