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Cloisone Bottle To Share ..

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Author Topic: Cloisone Bottle To Share ..  (Read 801 times)
George
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« on: December 15, 2014, 09:04:22 pm »

I am a little perplexed with this one.. It could be dated someplace between 1780 and 1900 when I compare to a couple of other similar open work with gold gilding style. Yet the shape of this one seems more likely 1900 or newer.. Then again, the "wood" cork on what appears to be the original stopper makes me wonder if it could be earlier.  I could only find one other older cloisonne example with similar wood cork from an old Aspire auction ... The enamel colors do match nicely to a couple of examples like the very last pic below.. Regardless the age, I do like it !

Miscellaneous pottery, scrolls, and plants, with lingzhi collar, scrolling lotus down the sides, with matching stopper. 

Not sure why the poorly executed Emperor's title character within the Qianlong Nian Zhi molded reign mark.
 










I did find a couple of similar open work cloisonne painted with gold gilding dated 18th and 19th.. The enamel colors really match nicely to the last example below..



« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 10:40:47 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2014, 09:15:48 pm »

George

Cloissone is not my area  but don't let these wood corks fool you. They are still being used today by Chinese dealers. To me this bottle does not look old and looks 'off'. Some Chinese  dealers  also sell the old looking spoons.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 09:17:41 pm by Pat » Report Spam   Logged

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Pat
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2014, 09:46:09 pm »

Quote
Yet the shape of this one seems more likely 1900 or newer.

George, 

like Pat, this is not may area but I have seen a number over the years.  Given how shinny the gilding looks I suspect much newer.  Compare the patina to links provided. 

http://www.e-yaji.com/Marakovic/photo.php?photo=1983&exhibition=3&ee_lang=eng

http://www.e-yaji.com/Marakovic/photo.php?photo=1982&exhibition=3&ee_lang=eng

http://www.e-yaji.com/Marakovic/photo.php?photo=1981&exhibition=3&ee_lang=eng

http://www.e-yaji.com/Marakovic/photo.php?photo=1979&exhibition=3&ee_lang=eng

http://www.e-yaji.com/Marakovic/photo.php?photo=1980&exhibition=3&ee_lang=eng

Also, remember that there is an ongoing discussion about whether very many older cloisonné and champlevé bottles have marks.  Though many would disagree, it was thought that older bottles tend not to have reign marks.

It is an attractive bottle, but I suspect quite new.  Charll
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 01:18:29 am by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Steven
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2014, 10:09:26 pm »

Hi George,

I agree with Charll and Pat, That is new bottle, like charll mentioned that the older bottles tend not to have reign marks, even it has , the mark would be deep craved not moulded like this one .
Steven


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George
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2014, 10:15:22 pm »

Thank you all very much.. When can we know they first started to use reign marks, especially molded ?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 10:21:33 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

YT
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2014, 10:39:25 pm »

Regardless the age, I do like it !


Dear George,

I like it too and it looks to be well executed.

Charll's links to the Marakovic collection seems to be the best as I remembered him to be the expertise in cloisonné bottles.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2014, 01:11:45 am »

Hi George,
The one you posted, feels like the bottom is rubbed off and then the mark added. Or if modern, never have a real bottom.

Quote
Not sure why the poorly executed Emperor's title character within the Qianlong Nian Zhi molded reign mark.

I would guess it happened when they reheat the mark after it was molded (modern mold might leave a very sharp mark) or carved (badly). By reheating (with a torch) you can take out the sharp edges or make an uneven carve or stamp look better.

One of the tell is those globs or fused strokes that are close by. And I think the extra melting of the indent oval.

My 2 bronze cents  Cheesy

David

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« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2014, 12:45:50 pm »

Charll- Thanks for the links.  They are very helpful.  I've been stumped on this type of bottle before and hopefully it will not happen again.
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« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2014, 02:12:40 pm »

Yt, thank you.. I like your description of "being well executed".. I agree .

I am still very interested to learn when they may have first started to include the reign mark to the original mold on cloisonne pieces..

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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2014, 05:09:58 pm »

Dear George,
    This type of cloisonne bottle is NEVER older than 1890-1930, and most, like the one you posted, are ca. 1950-1970. This is another successful foray by 'a certain dealer' to flog late bottles as early and "possibly Imperial"! Notice whose name is on the Provenance lists!  If ANY of this style are older than 1890, I'd be really shocked.
    And some of the 'regular' type cloisonne bottles from Marakovic are much later than described, as well.
Whoever has my 1987 catalogue, look at #77. This lifesize bottle is a good benchmark for how detailed the 18th C. work could be. There was not the technology to do finer work then. And notice the dull colours, typical of the period 1760-1830.
   Best,
    Joey
   
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George
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2014, 08:03:21 pm »

Thanks Joey...

Yes, although I did not mention it, the last one shown is from Dennis Low collection.. So very good chance not nearly as old as claimed..

I would like to date mine something like 1950.. Give or take..

It is because of the lack of dull enamel colors that makes it for sure not 19th century..
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« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2014, 02:26:42 am »

Dear Joey,

If you use an otoscope or something better, and look into the bottles.

What will you see inside your bottle versus a 1890-1930 versus a post 1950?

Do you expect to see the metal? Or enamel? Or glaze?

I looked at your #77 and some in Steven's book. There are fine little holes left by bubbling on your's and Steven's with no sign of under fill, while I think the openings of the bottle George posted is left by under filling and skimping on number of times of refill, fire, and polish. Is this correct?

These things are pretty heavy to keep in sleeves or dangling pouches. Are they really used for snuff or just curios?

Curiously,
David
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« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2014, 03:21:27 pm »

Dear George,
    I agree with your date, if you 'give' another 40-50 years.  Grin
Best,
   Joey



Thanks Joey...

Yes, although I did not mention it, the last one shown is from Dennis Low collection.. So very good chance not nearly as old as claimed..

I would like to date mine something like 1950.. Give or take..

It is because of the lack of dull enamel colors that makes it for sure not 19th century..
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2014, 03:32:23 pm »

Dear David,
     Can't do that - I don't own the instrument or the bottle anymore. But I did look inside when I had the bottle at a friend's and he had the device for checking inside your ear (Is that the otoscope?). He has about 5 and I had 2. None had glazing, if you mean like a thick glaze on porcelain. But I assume 'glaze' and enamel are both glass at heart. Some had a fine blue enamel coating the metal, and some were just metal. We could not tell the difference between the two types; they seemed the same quality. Unless the fact that it was interior enameled was itself the quality difference...

This is tourist tat, made to flog to unsuspecting tourists (or to really rich 'collectors' for shitloads of cash, if you are a certain dealer).  Cheesy
     Even the earlier ones, ca.1890-1925, were made to sell to Western tourists, who already had the regular cloisonnes, and wanted 'something different'.
     Yes, the answer to your question about the enamel is correct.
Best,
 Joey



Dear Joey,

If you use an otoscope or something better, and look into the bottles.

What will you see inside your bottle versus a 1890-1930 versus a post 1950?

Do you expect to see the metal? Or enamel? Or glaze?

I looked at your #77 and some in Steven's book. There are fine little holes left by bubbling on your's and Steven's with no sign of under fill, while I think the openings of the bottle George posted is left by under filling and skimping on number of times of refill, fire, and polish. Is this correct?

These things are pretty heavy to keep in sleeves or dangling pouches. Are they really used for snuff or just curios?

Curiously,
David

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

David
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« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2014, 06:18:10 pm »

Dear Joey,

Thank you for the answers. Yes, the otoscope is for checking the ears. I got a retail version with a plastic head and led cool light. It works well enough for the price of under 40 to look at portions of the inside. (copying Giovanni's inquisitive spirit)

A really nice tool will be the military grade borescope with the adjustable fiberoptic heads, the ones they use in movie to see what is going one in a room by inserting a thin tube under door, or a small opening.

Then I understand now, the ones I have are really modern tourist ones (no bubbles on the cloisonné mini vase and enamel over coppers anywhere). They must had pour the left over glaze grinding back in or never bothered to empty it after grinding. That is why there is glazing on the inside with mixed color and transparent with metal showing.  Roll Eyes

Another mystery for me solved, thank you.

With gratitude,
David

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« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2014, 06:23:52 pm »

Dear Joey,

Almost forgot, I would think the one with blue enamel on the inside is for snuff. The one without, I kind of doubt unless the bottle is silver or gold.

I would hate to be the craftsman to ruin my customer's snuff, by imparting a hint of copper or metal in their snuff  Wink

In jest 50%,
David
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« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2014, 12:08:08 am »

Dear David,

This is another example of a heavy, slightly ugly and full of holes(big and small) which I have long regarded as a wrong purchase(another rubbish) yet thanks to Joey's amazing experience. I have a small gem instead. Grin

Cheers,
YT


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« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2014, 12:42:10 am »

Dear YT,

I sincerely hope it is a gem, but I don't want to jinx you by offering any words yet.  Cheesy I seem to have a string of misidentification one after the other recently... (Which I really appreciate to be taught this way).

For fun, would you please take more photos and the size? Then I will hazard a guess and we can wait for Joey to give the final word.

Do you have any tools to look inside the bottle? I think that will help a lot for this kind.

Kind regards with humor,
David
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« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2014, 02:47:32 am »

Dear David,

Please do your worst so I can learn from it. I didn't get this for a high price and wasn't expecting at all.

It will be a while before I can take photos as I have kept it away.

Thank you and as always appreciate your frank comments.  Wink

Cheers,
YT
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Steven
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« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2014, 10:23:21 am »

Dear YT,

Your bottle look right to me, Congratulations!

Please share the base the mouth with us once you have a chance.Smiley

Steven
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