Questions on Collector's Book of Snuff Bottles

[OIB]

David,

Since you cited ovelay bottles in your posts, I would like to share one or two such bottles in my collection.

They are 20th century pieces fitting for fondling in my palm.

From my little collection of snuff bottles, I occasionally put a different bottle a day in my pocket and feel the sensation of the artist's fruit of labour / love over a month.

Inn Bok
Singapore

[David]

Hi YT,

Or perhaps buried with him.

I still can't figure out the 2 pots and long thin grass, I don't think it's a rebus. If I ever do I will let you know.

Hi Steven,

Thank you for the good advices, I keep them in mind. Especially, the one regarding actually handle bottles (when I am done reading), and save up for a great bottle.

I am still confused how to compare (it goes against my habit to not prioritize and quantify something), but I am trying to take what you said repeatedly and focus on developing an overall feeling.

Once I receive my opti-Visors 1.75x and 2.75x, I will be able to see the carvings on the mouth and base better.

Warm Regards,
David

[David]

Hello Inn Bok,

Thank you for sharing the modern bottles, they still look very nice to me (I guessI need more training to spot the more modern ground and finishing on the base/neck...).

Are they made in the very early 20th century? Or very recently from a good maker?

I can't see if there is a facial feature on the first one, but it feels almost like a Yang Zhou Seal style, with a darker color.

I really like the Hulu's carving, it is so nice! Are you sure that they did not accidentally sell you an older bottle?

Just realized something... how big are they?

Best Regards,
David

[Steven]

Thanks Inn Bok for sharing two very good examples of modern overlay bottles!

Hi David,

Inn Bok's bottles are made in the second half of 20th, but they are very well made, and well collectable as long as you don't pay it with old ones' price.

When I say comparison, which is not a simply overall look comparison, you have to compare every single detail if you can.

Now its A task for you, can you tell what the differences from Inn Bok's bottles to the bottles from Steven's book? If you can find the difference, then you will have the answers for yourself, why some are 20th while others are from 19th.

Steven

[rpfstoneman]

Now its A task for you, can you tell what the differences from Inn Bok's bottles to the bottles from Steven's book? If you can find the difference, then you will the answers for yourself, why some are 20th while others are from 19th.

David, what's the first thing that pops out in making such a comparison?  There are at least 3 things I see right off in doing this comparison.  [Will provide answer once you have a chance to look.]

Charll

[David]

Hi Steven, Inn Bok and Charll,
( Inn Bok, please take no offense, I am being extra picky, if not for you, Charll, Steven saying it I still can't believe the Hulu is modern.)
Thank you for teaching/helping me.

First bottle
    a) I would say color is too opaque and does not lend well to the "3d" shading achieve by controlling thickness of the overlay from carving/polishing It seems to need a more transparent kind of overlay
    b) I don't recall seeing this color from the catalogs and books that I read so far. (but, all I had look at are Important or from these great collectors, so not sure if I had seen enough colors yet)
    c) The ground's polish is too shinny, while the books looks to be more warm and not hard on the eyes. I have a feeling the new one is difficult to look in strong natural sunlight...
    d) The carver/polisher did not polish out all the fine details around the leaves or other delicate areas (Is the term under polish/carve of the ground?). So, it looks like flat leaves/features.
    e) The tree limbs and leaves are not natural. There is not the feel of a gentle draft/breeze in one direction that will make a willow pretty, there is like 2-3 opposite directions and make it look unnatural.
    f) It is too crowded, and the kids are floating. The nice Yang Zhou seal ones, tend to ground the person/animal/insect to the ground/branches/cloud/leaves/water etc...
    g) I can't think of a rebus that feels right. And for a kid to try to catch a butterfly, is kind of odd if want this to be traditional auspicious
    h) Tree growing straight out of the rock is odd, usually next to the rock or close to is the right feeling
    i) not sure how to say this, the kids don't look joyful, feels restricted somehow. Also, the postures are not natural
    j) The bottle shape is different/ easy to knock over
    k) There is no vines, cracks, holes, wrinkles on the less obvious part of the tree stump or thin part of the branch
    l) The base ring is not separated clearly or via shading. So without the border (a base rim or even white space) it feels "ungrounded".

a, b, c and e are what pops out to me when I first look at it (but I need to think to be able to write the "uneasiness" into words). The others were from dissecting my feeling point by point like you mentioned.
Now that I think about it... Is that a key point? Old bottle is viewed and appreciated differently from new one.


I really like the second bottle (the rebus of long vine, 9 small gourds -I assume-, and a big gourd feels right), and find it hard to believe it is a recent made one. I was thinking this one was one of the last few the old craftsman made before WW1 and the Dai Nippon aggressions (to put it politely in public). After the confirmation from you (Steven), I look very carefully and notice a few things that I did not notice before.

   a) The middle ring on the gourd serves no purpose, except to hide the difficulty part in making a smooth "connection" between the 2 sides. If it is free, then it will feel "righter", or if the vine grows over it instead of being restricted by it.
   b) The base is 2 color, it should (?) be thinner and just 1 color to avoid the careless look. And I think a gourd looks better with no base trim.
   c) the gourd flowers looks like plum or peach flower, I don't recall there are composite vine from the 2 and 1/10th rebus books I read
   d) the bat serves no purposes and proportion is wrong when it is meant to be in the foreground, now it feels like an after thought...
   e) The background leaf for each of the small gourds is too similar (so are the small gourds). It takes the life of randomness out, the small gourds should be at different stage of maturation and orientation for it to be natural. And the leaves are too big and similar.
   f) For me the ground do not have the "mirror" polish and looks nice... Is it too nice?
   g) Just noticed (since I am being in a super picky mindset), the vine's ending is wrong. It should taper off to nothing and not a round glob.

Sorry to say this, Charll, nothing pops out when I look the second time. I have to switch my mind to a nasty critic to come up with the above. But, oddly, now I can notice the ring, base and the vine tip easier. Thank you for the hint on glancing and see if anything pops out.

With all that said, I still think the Hulu looks good and is better than even some glass overlay in Steven's book, to my eyes.

I still can't understand the difference of the neck or lip of these 2 bottles versus the older ones. Is it because the body form is not comparable?

Warm Regards,
David

[rpfstoneman]

David,

In reading the last post I feel you may be getting bogged down in the details of the bottles and/or over thinking the comparison.  I would suggest dialing down the analytical part of the mind and turning up the volume on the artistic eye.  The only analogy I can come up with is that you may be trying to analyze the individual characteristics of the tree leaf with your telescope while looking at the forest.  From your response you may want to step back and see the forest first. 
 
OK, on to the things I see and how I see them in this comparison.  Some of these things you did pick up on so you do get credit for those, but think more simply.  The thing that ‘pop’ out at me between the Stevens’ bottles and Inn Bok’s was the bottle shapes, but here is my evaluation of new glass vs. old.

1)   Form/shape.   The older (Stevens) bottles have more of a standard, simplistic, shape.  Wide flat faces front and back, with more narrow or thin sides.  If you were to rest any of the Stevens bottles on a face they would lay flat and remain in place.  Inn Bok’s bottles have a more rounded body and if laid down would have a tendency to want to roll.   Now this is not to say that there are no round old bottles, it is just not the tendency.

2)   Relief.  Low and smooth (older) vs. higher and more sharp (newer).

3)   Matte vs. Shiny.  The older bottles tend to have a more matte appearance in both surface finish and color, while newer bottles often sparkle and have a high polish.  This could be just due to abrasion from use.
 
4)   Color.  This is hard to describe, but the older bottles tend to be more true, uniform, and have less complex variations.  Inn Bok’s gourd bottle is a good example, this appear to be a double overlay of white, pink, on a white body.  The way it’s done there appears to be a gradation in colors that gives the appearance of more complexity.

5)   Grinding Marks.  This can be all over the map.  Good older glass bottles will be polished all the way to the seams and into crevices, though the polished surface along the design margins is not perfect.  There is often minor divots and striations which are polished, but have not been completely eliminated.  New bottles can be at the extremes, with very little effort given to polishing along the margins of the design to it being too perfect and very uniform like it was laser cut.   

6)   Open Space vs. Crowding of Design.  Older bottles tend to have more open space in the design so it can breathe.  Newer bottle designs can often be too compacted with details causing the eyes to focus in rather than float over the surface of the bottle. 

These are the things I was immediately aware of when I made this visual comparison.   Charll       

[Steven]

Thanks Charll for your excellent explanations! I think you are pretty much covered everything, I have nothing to add.

I also agree with Charll that David is a little over analyzed, but a good start.

Steven

 

[David]

Hello Charll and Steven,

Thank you both for taking the time to read and point out my difficulty to understand art in general. The visual image regarding the telescope to study the leaves instead of the forest, that will help me strongly to step back.

Thank you for writing down the 6 distinguishing points.

I will read my collections of books one time and then go to a couple of museums nearby and see if I can develop a more artistic eye and hold back the urge to analyze it until I form a good art opinion first.

When you are trying to decide if a bottle is old or new, is the decision already made based on the first impression that “pops” out at you in the first 1-3 seconds?

Then the subsequent detail checks and handling are mainly to confirm and increase the confidence level of the “pop” decision? And if believe is old, to ensure it is not a well done fake?


Regarding the gradation in coloring for 2 or more overlay layers. The old bottles, do they first carve to the final thickness of the design and close to the final shapes of the first layer, and then dip the second layer? I thought of this question when you mentioned the gradation in modern 2 layer, I am wondering if that is because they did not make the effort to get down to the final thickness before dipping the 2nd layer.


Warm Regards,
David

[OIB]

Dear David, Charll and Steven,

I enclose three pictures taken from " Snuff Bottles from China " - The Victoria & Albert Museum ( in London ),
compiled by Helen White to add some fuels to the ongoing comparison of the double gourd-shaped bottle. I enjoyed the discussion so far ( I must admit I bought my bottle sort of ' love at first sight ', from artisitic starting point. I did not do so much techncal analysis as David though ! )

The first bottle ( IMG 7551) is an overlay of white glass on pink and was dated 1750 - 1909. It was a Salting bequest.

The second bottle ( IMG 7553 ) is an overlay of red on a transparent mottled glass and was dated 1750-1900. It was a Boone bequest.

The third one ( IMG 7554 ) is an overlay on red on opaque white, dated 1750 - 1900. It was a Boone bequest.

Have a good weekend !

Maybe George could move this thread to Glass Bottle category instead of leaving the threads under the present subject title ?

Inn Bok

[OIB]

picture IMG 7553.

[OIB]

picture IMG 7554

[YT]

Dear David,

This is a Qian Long period double gourd overlay bottle. It is one of my dream bottle and looks very 'sexy'. I had a chance to hold it and the shape fits the palm very well, giving a very tactile feeling.

Cheers,
YT

Take a look at it's colour(rare), neck, foot and waist(not too slim yet only imperial glass workshop can achieve this).

[rpfstoneman]

When you are trying to decide if a bottle is old or new, is the decision already made based on the first impression that “pops” out at you in the first 1-3 seconds?

Then the subsequent detail checks and handling are mainly to confirm and increase the confidence level of the “pop” decision? And if believe is old, to ensure it is not a well done fake?

David, the first impression may be more that 1-3 seconds, but yes this is how I generally process a bottle evaluation.  Charll

[David]

Hello Inn Bok,

Those 3 bottles have a very wide date range!   

I noticed that the first two bottles have very nice solid bands in the middle. It looks nicely carved and strengthens the structure, I believe. They also have a very clean repeating motif look (with a little difference to keep it from boring).

I still like your modern one as it looks very nice, but after seeing these 3, I think the carver was doing too much thing at one time. He was trying to be natural, repeating motif, auspicious rebus, and carved a ring that is found on agate/jade to highlight "Ghost Skill" in carving instead of a solid one to strengthen the glass. IMHO, I think if he pick one of the first 3 area and focus on it, it can rival the 3 you showed.

But, I don't quite understand the 3rd one. It looks more like a modern one, then your artistic one.

Warm Regards,
David

[David]

Dear YT,

I can't believe how symmetric the left and right side is from the neck, waist, and foot. Cut by the lozenge, but still not boring looking. Thank you for showing me this photo, it is worth more than a thousand words.

May you have 10,000 victories over 10,000 generations with each generation filled with lots and lots of sons! The rebus is certainly imperial.


Thank you,
David

[David]

Hello Charll,

Thank you for teaching me the process, I hope I can develop that insight feeling based on experience and subconscious analysis in the future.

Best Regards,
David

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Charll,
Thank you so much for your analysis, very well done and helpful.
Dear David: “When you are trying to decide if a bottle is old or new, is the decision already made based on the first impression that “pops” out at you in the first 1-3 seconds?”
Absolutely yes, the first impression is right in largely the majority of cases. When you have to look carefully at a piece, considering “this is good, this is good too” and so on, then most probably you are handling a good fake. A real piece is spotted immediately, of course once one has enough experience. Our subconscious, as you also mentioned, has an incredible analysis capacity.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[David]

Dear Giovanni,

Thank you, for confirming that even someone as analytical/evidence driven as you do that.

Kind and curious regards,
David

[YT]

Dear David,

This is one catalog that I strongly recommend. Only 37 lots for sale and 29 bottles were sold for HKD$29 million.
Very rarely do catalogs come with such good description and comparisons.

The double gourd bottle I posted earlier was from this book.

Cheers,
YT