Questions on Collector's Book of Snuff Bottles

[David]

Hello,

I have some questions that came about from reading Bob Steven's book, regarding seal type overlay glass bottles (235,236,238,239-251).

1) How to differentiate the seal type bottle made for domestic versus tourist?

2) If after 1850's, that would be after 1st Opium War, during 2nd Opium War, Taiping Civil War, ... why is there not more influence of the war and disorder on these bottles?

3) Why will this group put the maker's mark in such an obvious spot?

4) Since the overlay are carved till they are like a thin skin and creates a 3-d effect, are they very fragile and easy to chip off if used normally as a snuff bottle?

5) Bob Stevens mentioned that cruder bottles could be made in more recent time, but also could be made at the beginning. Why the ambiguity?

6) If I were to rank them into 4 groups from viewing their quality:
Top level: 239, 242, 244, 251

Middle level: 238, 249

Beginning/modern quality?: 240, 241, 245, 247

Really a seal type? 235, 236, 246

Need better photo: 243, 248, 250

Please help me to develop a better eye when looking at photos, and  let me know if I made any big mistake in ranking them.

Best Regards,
David

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Hello,

I have some questions that came about from reading Bob Steven's book, regarding seal type overlay glass bottles (235,236,238,239-251).

1) How to differentiate the seal type bottle made for domestic versus tourist?
Joey's answer:
    There are no 'domestic vs. tourist' bottles in Yangzhou Seal School bottles. These were made from the 1810s to the 1880s.  They were made primarily for a very small group originally, the wealthy salt merchants of Yangzhou, and their social group.
   Scholars were at the top of the social pyramid, so even Emperors tried to be seen as scholars. The Qianlong Emperor called his Imperial Fishing Retreat, The Diaoyutai (Ie. "Angler's Rest Pavilion"), as if he was a scholar fisherman.
   Wealthy merchants who were restricted by sumptuary laws from owning certain things, wanted to feel that they were 'scholarly', so they commissioned and collected these thin relief overlay bottles with notable 'scholarly' attributes, like seals, archaistic designs (such as ancient style taotie on sides), etc.
   The issue is to differentiate between genuine wares made ca.1810-1880 and fakes and copies made ca. 1950-2014.

2) If after 1850's, that would be after 1st Opium War, during 2nd Opium War, Taiping Civil War, ... why is
 there not more influence of the war and disorder on these bottles?
Joey's answer:
    First Opium War was 1839-1842; Taiping Rebellion was 1850-1864; Second Opium War was 1856-1860; Boxer Uprising was 1899-1901.  Why would there be any influence of the wars and upheaval on the bottles, except that we don't know how many were damaged/destroyed due to the upheaval of the wars/etc?
   I have an 18K gold Art Deco design Tiffany powder case made during WWII. Guess how much influence it had on the style? None. Wealthy people who are trying to distract themselves from everyday problems rarely splash it all over their possessions.
3) Why will this group put the maker's mark in such an obvious spot?
Joey's answer:
  It was part of the whole 'sholarly archaistic style' issue. It was meant to show that the owners or collectors were appreciative of archaic and archaistic style art works.

4) Since the overlay are carved till they are like a thin skin and creates a 3-d effect, are they very fragile and easy to chip off if used normally as a snuff bottle?
  Joey's answer:
   No. Actually they are certainly no more fragile, and possibly less fragile than other overlay glass snuff bottles.

5) Bob Stevens mentioned that cruder bottles could be made in more recent time, but also could be made at the beginning. Why the ambiguity?
  Joey's answer:
   I think Bob Stevens was wrong in this instance. The carvers were very well trained, and well paid. They had no reason to do poor work. Unless it was to fulfil the concept of 'Artful Artlessness', purposely making something fine look crude, as a reverse snobbism tactic. But that  was a principle invented by a certain dealer. The only thing we know the Chinese royals admired in this vein,  was very crude looking wooden furniture, made to look rustic on purpose, carved from fine hardwoods, and used on terraces etc.

6) If I were to rank them into 4 groups from viewing their quality:
Top level: 239, 242, 244, 251

Middle level: 238, 249

Beginning/modern quality?: 240, 241, 245, 247

Really a seal type? 235, 236, 246

Need better photo: 243, 248, 250

Please help me to develop a better eye when looking at photos, and  let me know if I made any big mistake in ranking them.
  Joey's answer:
     I have the book in Ireland, so can't help you with this.
Best,
Joey

Best Regards,
David

[Wattana]

Good questions David. And great answers Joey.
I have learned several knew things from this post already! 

Tom

[YT]

2) If after 1850's, that would be after 1st Opium War, during 2nd Opium War, Taiping Civil War, ... why is there not more influence of the war and disorder on these bottles?

Dear David,

Actually I have a commemorative bottle created due to the First Sino-Japanese War 甲午战争 1894 where many many Chinese lost their lives to this war and will always remain a disgrace to the Qing dynasty and later led to it's ultimate fall.

This bottle is painted by a very famous artist using his real name Ma GuangJia in memory of his elder brother Ma Zhengyun.

Cheers,
YT 

[David]

Hi Joey,

Thank you very much for the answers, I am a little shocked. That these people continued to live their lifestyles without a shift in taste to being more patriotic or becoming more alert at these social upheavals? (In the case of Taiping Rebellion it is practically next door, while the opium usage is killing the country and it's people...)

That is sad.


Between 1900-1950, I guess the rebellion, civil wars, and Japanese invasion put an end to the bottle productions. Is there a reason that during 1880-1900, real YangZhou Seal type bottle production were stopped?

Is this stoppage between 1880-1950 limited to only real YangZhou Seal type, or is it for all high end bottles, or just all bottles as everyone is in survival or kill/be kill modalities?

What will be the key points to look for to determine real versus fake/copy made after 1950s?



Are the sumptuary laws also a cause for the popularity of glass or lower grade stones imitating jade, coral, etc...? Because these wealthy merchants or lower ranked scholars/officials wanted to carry things (assuming that carrying a jade snuff bottle in the sleeves or pouch is viewed the same as wearing a jade item) that they are not allowed?


That certain dealer is very interesting, but this time I think it is going too far. I have difficulties imagining merchants (one of the least noble profession, back then) that strived so hard to look scholarly/distinguished to fall back to a crude look.

I am going to try to see if I can find my old PC scanner tomorrow and see if I can get it to work with Apple. If I can, I will scan in the pages for the bottles referenced. I am very curious, if some of Bob Steven's seal bottles were made after 1950s.


Thank you for taking the time to teach me/us, these are Knowledge that I can not find or connect the pieces up with.

Warm and happy regards,
David

[David]

Hi Tom,

Thank you.

It is amazing how deep and wide his knowledge is. I had been skimming my books and couldn't figure any of those out.

David

[David]

Hi YT,

Thank you for sharing the very nice bottle, it looks so solemn on the front. Are the tea, mini-garden and the pots of grass (?) things that the elder enjoyed? What are the pots of grass for?

Just curious, are those white water lilies in the back representing the younger's hope for rebirth for his elder brother? Or is it something else?

Kind Regards,
David

[David]

Hi Joey,

It still works! 

Thank you again for teaching and helping me gain a better eye.

David

To author(s) and copyright property owners, the following photos are used for discussion and learning purposes only. Please contact me via the forum private message and I will remove it.

The Collector's Book of Snuff Bottles, Bob C. Stevens. 1st Ed. 1976, pgs 74-5.

This post is for my view of Top Level:

[David]

To author(s) and copyright property owners, the following photos are used for discussion and learning purposes only. Please contact me via the forum private message and I will remove it.

The Collector's Book of Snuff Bottles, Bob C. Stevens. 1st Ed. 1976, pgs 74-5.

This Post is for my view of Middle Level:

[David]

To author(s) and copyright property owners, the following photos are used for discussion and learning purposes only. Please contact me via the forum private message and I will remove it.

The Collector's Book of Snuff Bottles, Bob C. Stevens. 1st Ed. 1976, pgs 74-5.

This post is for my view of post 1950:

[David]

To author(s) and copyright property owners, the following photos are used for discussion and learning purposes only. Please contact me via the forum private message and I will remove it.

The Collector's Book of Snuff Bottles, Bob C. Stevens. 1st Ed. 1976, pgs 74-5.

This post is for my view of bottles that I find odd to be included as seal type:

[David]

To author(s) and copyright property owners, the following photos are used for discussion and learning purposes only. Please contact me via the forum private message and I will remove it.

The Collector's Book of Snuff Bottles, Bob C. Stevens. 1st Ed. 1976, pgs 74-5.

This post is for bottles that I think need better photos:

[David]

Hi Joey,

You mentioned 1810s as the start point of Yang Zhou seal school. Is that because Jia Qing's drive for austerity? Was that around the time when the imperial glass workshop is closed (just a guess, as I can't figure out what else is logical for selecting 1810's as a start point)?

Did he first shut down the Jade and Stone carver workshop, Amber workshop (if there is one), and then go down the list of "useless luxury" workshops?

Did he keep porcelain as that is the most cost effective, especially when molded?

Kindly,
David

[Steven]

Hi David,

You are pretty much on the right track, they are all good bottles, except a couple of a little lower quality ones like 241, 245, or possible 246, other than that, all great bottles.

235 is a great bottle, and very rare color combination , sold more than $50,000.00 in 2012, sometimes the value of the bottles is not just because the quality of bottles, some other factors need to be involved as well, the color , the shape, and combination of the colors, motif.. etc.

After you read some books, know what is good quality, then buy some some auction catalogue, find the hammer price, then you will know which kind of bottles is appreciated by the collectors, it might not reflect the true value, but close enough. Then you will have some reference prices in your mind when you start to buy bottles.

Steven

[Steven]

Dear YT,

Thank you for sharing the Ma shaoxuan bottle, its very rare to see his bottle signed Ma Guangjia, I guess its only because its a gift for his elder brother.

A wonderful bottle, and a expensive bottle too, I was actually watching the bottle, altho I knew I was not be able to afford it.

Congratulations!!

Steven

[George]

A wonderful and rare bottle indeed YT...

Congratulations !

[David]

Hi Steven,

Thank you for the word of encouragement.

Regarding bottles like 235, where the combination of color is very rare, shape and the deeper (but nice) carving into the grounds.

How does a collector balance the risk of a rare bottle being of the period, versus the possibility that it is something made after 1950s?

When you look look at 235, do you feel "chi"? Or do you feel "perfection"?  These are not to debate if it is worth 50k, but I am trying to get a feeling of viewing it from a collector's eyes with painting expertise.

Kind Regards,
David

[YT]

Dear Steven and George,

Thank you . I still find that the price is worth a Ma ShaoXuan bottle and I like the story behind it.


Dear David,

You have made a great point of the bottle being solemn and the white lilies as a remembrance tribute to his brother.
As for the other items, Ma ShaoXuan likes to draw work of art and I presume this being the case. Or maybe these are items belonging to his brother in their family home.

Cheers,
YT

[Pat - 查尚杰]

To be honest I am shocked with 235.  At first glance, I would not think it is of the period, but I don't know the provenance, and I am not around Stevens' book.  The edges seem to sharp.  Curious to hear Joey's response.  

Steven

Do you know the provenance?

YT

Nice Ma Shouxuan.  Would you mind sharing how much it went for?  Steven seems to know but I'd rather ask you.  I try to track MPIPB prices as well as I can.  You can share privately via message if you prefer.  Thank you!

[Steven]

Hi David,

As I said it last time, Identifying a bottle can be very complicated, so many factors need to be considered, but it can be very simple as well. Comparison, Comparison and Comparison!
 
If you ever find a similar bottle, do a side to side comparison with the similar genuine ones, ofcoz if that would be the best if you can handle the genuine bottle, and get the feeling of handling, which will bring your memory up when you handle the similar ones. if you only buy stuff from some photos, you will never be able to avoid the fakes, that is the risk you need to take.

Also, every collector is different, the bottle might worth $50000.00 to you, doesn't mean it worth $50000.00 to me. some collectors might like the color combination a lot , some might not.  To a collector like me, it is  just a very rare, nice carving bottle. but it might mean much more to others.

Sometimes, it could also be a monetary game when you get into another lever collections, its expensive only because a couple of rich people like it, which is nothing to do with the quality of the bottle. I am not referring this bottle.

So have been saying that, when you read book, focus on how those good bottles tell you,  look closer how the detail carved, how it being polished, how the mouth and base rim being finished.. those are more important to you as a beginner.

Steven