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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 28, 2024, 04:59:58 pm
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Zhuang Yuan Snuff Brush

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Author Topic: Zhuang Yuan Snuff Brush  (Read 1016 times)
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David
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« on: November 24, 2014, 01:09:12 am »

Please note if you see the following notes on my posting. It means that those were purchased prior to joining this forum and starting to learn about this area. I will take one person's advice and only post (after 12/1/2014) those that I think are tourist/student bottle.

Please note: These were purchased prior to my joining this forum. All were bought prior to me taking a more serious view of learning about this area. So, please give constructive comments regarding, why this is a tourist/student bottle (if it is), and within this category, is it a good piece or not.

I guess there was some bad blood in the past?

That is unfortunate, I would consider it a honor if someone took the time to copy my style in good taste after researching the material. I will take my posting in his style more private then.

I think this is a modern bottle, but if anyone on this forum knows when it was made or even had seen it in HK or China etc... please let me know. I am curious if this is a higher level of tourist bottle or if it is normal cheap 2-10 dollar one.

Thank you,
David


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« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 12:38:15 pm by David » Report Spam   Logged

David

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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2014, 05:09:58 am »

David,
    SIMPLY BRILLIANT!
 You are literally channeling a certain seller of Art! SCARY BUT WONDERFUL!!!  Grin
If he ever reads this, he will try to recruit you for the Dark Side!
It did make me feel better.
Best,
Joey
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 07:17:45 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2014, 07:07:09 am »

Or sue someone's ass off. Don't take this too far guys. I don't think I need to remind you all that this is a public forum. Watch out!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 07:13:46 am by Pat » Report Spam   Logged

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Pat
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Zha Shang Jie

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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2014, 07:16:32 am »

Dear Pat & Giovanni,
   THANK YOU!
I got carried away. I did need your timely warnings.
I really appreciate your looking after me.
Best,
Joey


Or sue someone's ass off. Don't take this too far guys. I don't think I need to remind you all that this is a public forum. Watch out!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 05:40:30 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 02:02:46 pm »

Sorry Pat, I forgot it is a public forum. Thank you for the reminder.

Best Regards,
David


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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2014, 02:07:17 pm »

Hi Joey,

I am glad it made you feel better, in the future I will send you a private message for the ones that I find interesting enough to do the research on and make a story.

Most of the others are somewhat boring, only this one and the pair of overlay are interesting enough for me to make something like this.

After I learn enough, I am going to develop my own style and I think it will be close to this. Of all the catalogue description I read, I like his and whomever is responsible for writing the chinese version of the Sotheby's HK catalogue in 1997.

David
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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2014, 06:29:06 pm »

What an interesting piece David, and I did get to read the original post which you really captivated me with your knowledge.. I can not help but say it was the most interesting topic you have presented here !  Just really interesting, even though completely our of my realm of knowledge..

Beautiful piece !
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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2014, 08:01:48 pm »

Hi David,

I'm still traveling yet manage to read once your descriptions. I have to agree with George that it is an interesting piece and makes me want to study your bottle too.
The short timeframe taken to pick up the keywords are pretty impressive.

Cheers,
YT
(Struggling in Disneyland with too many tourist)
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2014, 09:31:18 pm »

Hi David,

Where is your original description  of the bottle, I think its well done.

I would agree with you that is not an old bottle, but interesting enough, and not made recently, a vintage bottle is what I will call it, could be from later 20th.

I am thinking if I ever want to sell my bottles one day, I will hire you to write the descriptions for my bottles.

Steven
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« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2014, 12:11:20 am »

Hi George, Yt and Steven,

Thank you!  Grin  I will private message the original to you and try to remember to send you the twist (it is half done) that I am working on to cheer Joey up, I am glad you like it too.

Most of the facts are from the Bartholomew's book (I heard of them before, but not as rebuses). Look up:
1) lotus leaf (I purposely left out in the 2nd interpretation, as a lead in to the twist)
2) one crab (as a armor) only and not holding stalk of grain, rice, etc.. This is key to notice.
3) the lotus root
4) the 10 heavenly is peripheral
5) the mitten crab ID is peripheral... I don't like the taste of the "coral" (egg/cream under shell between meat) from recent ones, but the ones from 20 years ago in HK is heavenly. So, I burned the image of a live mitten crab into my mind.
6) Imperial exam and rank is a combo of peripheral and Bartholomew's book
7) other bits and pieces are from Wiki
eight) tone and twist and word are from Magazine 5 and some noteworthy auction description he wrote

I really think the first 7 chapter is great and well worth the cost of her hardcover. But keep in mind of her weakness in martial and religious rebuses. It will be great if someone as knowledgeable as her come up with something similar in those areas.


Hi Steven,

No need to hire, for you it will always be free (as long as it is not a collection of more than 50... I don't think anyone can research more than 500 bottle sand stay sane... except for this one person that shall not be named).  Cheesy

Hi YT,

You are in Disneyland? and still checking the forum! Wow you are dedicated!   Cheesy

David
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 12:14:21 am by David » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2014, 01:20:41 am »

Hi Steven,

I never paid much attention to tourist bottle ... actually any bottle except my elder's jade ones... before (and don't worry, unless it is as interesting as this one, I will not even dare to think of buying it and I promise to get George, Giovanni, and your ok first..  Tongue   Cheesy), when younger.

Is it usual to see something that contains deeper rebuses similar to this in the late 1900s? I am not talking about the obvious peach, bat, peonies, coins, rocks, character symbols, etc... But the deeper ones like this, or crab with stalk of grains, or uncommon ones that only one that grew up among traditions will notice (or took the time to study her's or Raymond Li's book).

I almost missed the crab, but it was bothering me as it was only one by itself with nothing in it's claws (looks kind of lonely and not doing anything). When we do like to have pairs.

It is odd, that after searching ebay, Skinner, and a few other sites. I still can not find anything similar to this one, or red overlay pair, or the miniature vase/bottle that looks like an art deco lightbulb. But, I also can't find it on anything similar on the catalogue, books etc...

Does this mean that there are a lot of creative little shops during the 1980s-now that make these unique ones or in small batches? If yes, then I am very surprised at the level of implied meaning that they put into these. My uncle once told me that understanding the true meaning of Chinese art is a dying art, and everything nowadays (in the late 70s) is rubbish. Back then, I thought he was giving me a load of cr*p, but now I think I owe him a big apology...

David
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2014, 12:32:54 am »


David,

This bottle that is currently listed on Ebay looks to be similar to yours.  I suspect this is a new form (style) of bottle currently being produced in China.  Charll

Bottle Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chinese-Crab-On-Lotus-Root-Carved-Pink-Peking-Glass-Snuff-Bottle-/371200119485?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item566d4052bd
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2014, 01:36:39 am »

Hi Charll,

Thank you for sharing the listing, it does have some similarities. I think that one looks ugly to my eyes (even before I joined this forum and start to learn), but it does have a big improvement over mine.

  Grin  They must had a lot of complaints from scholars getting poked by the sharp tip and failing the Imperial exams, so the newer ones do not have the sharp tip anymore.

They should have kept the rhizome and brush tip, then they can make the description more interesting. Now, it looks quite boring.

Best Regards,
David
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2014, 01:46:39 am »

Hi Charll,

If I may ask, what is your opinion regarding collecting pre versus post Qing dynasty snuff bottle? Do you consider the post Qing dynasty ones as "work of art in the style of snuff bottles" or do you consider them as snuff bottles?

I am still trying to finalize that in my head, there are categories that I consider work of art period. But there are a few that I am still not 100% sure.

There are some agates and hard stones that I saw that are definitely post 1912 due to the owner saying so, price, lack of the ability to convey the natural image -cover the wordings and you will never figure out what the dark inclusions or pattern represents- transparency and size. (not talking about those for Mongolian use)

How would you or the experienced collector consider these?

Best Regards,
David
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2014, 01:39:58 pm »

Quote
Do you consider the post Qing dynasty ones as "work of art in the style of snuff bottles" or do you consider them as snuff bottles?

David, that type of generalization cannot be made.  In my way of thinking there are categories of snuff bottles.  The four main categories are as follows:

1)   Utilitarian

Example: Conversion of medicine and herb bottles to snuff bottles, bottles made once snuff use filtered out to the general population in masses in the 1800’s.  Also, the merchant class was using snuff from the onset of its introduction into China.
   
2)   Works of art made to be utilitarian

Example: Bottles made for the court and as gifts from the court.

3)   Works of art with no intension of utility

Example: What we call cabinet pieces, often carved stones and gem quality material that are not well hollowed and immaculately carved ivories with just a drill hole for a spoon.  Most of the middle period and all modern period interior painted bottles fall within this category, as well as present day enameling artists.  These tend to be post 1900 pieces.
   
4)   Made as a collectable for the collectors market

Example: In the mid 1880’s collecting Asian was in vogue in Europe and the US.  Manufacturing export items to what was thought to be western taste and product orders by merchants for western demand was ongoing just as it is today.  Many of these bottles were designed to be functional as collectables and small works of art to be exported to western collectors, though they rarely saw any use.  Also, in this category are bottles designed for members of snuff bottle societies, and designed to celebrate special events, such as Nixon’s first trip to China in the 1970’s.
 
All of the above have been in play from the introduction of snuff to the present day, and in my opinion worth collecting.  As you indicate, and as Tom has documented and written about in Mongolia, snuff use is still ongoing in parts of the world.  Snuff use is still a practice in the Mongolia and Tibet regions as I understand.  So contemporary bottles that are utilitarian and collectable, or works of art, are still being made today.

And then in more contemporary times
5)   Tourist bottles made for souvenirs  or keepsakes
6)   And last total crap that has no collecting value.

Charll

Here is some information I put to another collector on the issue of lack of ware on a Daoguang period bottle, it provides a bit of an historical perspective on exports to the US which included snuff bottles.

Quote
Now let me address overall ware.  There has been some concern that this bottle is too pristine and rightly so.  But if the bottle was made for export to satisfy the ‘anything and everything Asian’ desire in the US and Europe, it could be of period.  Remember Asian wares were following out of China all though the 19th century.  The snuff bottle literature has indicated that collecting by envoys and merchants from the US could have occurred as early as the mid 1800’s.    US President John Tyler appointed Caleb Cushing as the first envoy to China and Cushing arrived there in 1844.  Cushing, a Massachusetts lawyer, was sent due to pressure from American merchants concerned about the British dominance in Chinese trade. 

Cushing upon arrival traveled to the village of Wanghia and signed America’s first treaty with China.  I presume that this was the beginning of open trade relations between the US and China.  Other European Nations by this time were already well established in China and had ongoing open trade.  The British trade delegation arrived in 1793.   Though at that time Qianlong accepted the gifts such as clocks, guns, telescopes, etc., from the British delegation he indicated he was doing so only because so much trouble had been taken to bring them so far.  While in the same moment Qianlong made the following point in regard to goods from the outside, “There is nothing we lack…We never set much store on strange or ingenious objects, nor do we need any more of your county’s manufacture”, thus setting the tone for Chinese trade to Europe and eventfully the US.  But ordinary Chinese thought differently and thousands accepted voluntary banishment by emigrating to lands where to they could live up to the reputation of being a nation of shopkeepers.  Hence establishing prominent flow of goods and collectibles out of China during this period.    Pristine wares were being made and have flowed out of China as export from the 1800’s to the present.
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2014, 01:48:25 pm »

Hello Charll,

Thank you very much for taking the time to break down the difference in looking at these bottles. I will need to think some more as what you wrote makes sense to me, and wait for a new book I recently ordered to come
Chinese Snuff bottle:Doc of World Trade W to E                  Susan E. Williams   

I actually have a whole lot more questions, but I am going to take a "break" from post online until I finish at least a first reading of all the books that I had ordered. I do understand most of my items are from category 6, with maybe 2-4 category 5. I do apologize to you and some of the hero members that I had the chance to communicate with if I had take my parodies a little to far. They will be in private message from now on.

I appreciate you for taking me seriously.

Kind Regards,
David


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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2014, 05:42:43 am »

Hi David,

I think all of us have bought a few "category 6" bottles in our early collecting days.
I'm afraid it's part of the learning curve.  Grin

Tom
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2014, 04:55:40 pm »

Hi Tom,

Thank you, I am learning now   Smiley

David
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2014, 01:58:15 am »

Hello,

Chinese Snuff bottle:Doc of World Trade W to E                  Susan E. Williams

This "book" is a disappointment for learning, I was hoping for something that really documents per the title. It is more of a Museum catalog that show cases ~70 bottles from Helen Pritchard's collection. From the perspective of pictures of nice valid bottle, it is a good deal at 10 dollars.

Best Regards,
David
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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2014, 08:08:11 pm »

Sorry to switch my mind on this. After sleeping a night and thinking about it today, it is a pretty good summary of it's title. And for 10 dollars, I have a concise reference with good dating of events, it is a pretty good deal.

Best Regards,
David
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