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A multicolored diasper bottle

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Author Topic: A multicolored diasper bottle  (Read 304 times)
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« on: November 23, 2014, 01:36:25 pm »

Dear all,
this diasper bottle is 60 mm high, reasonably well hollowed with a rotating tool. I donít think it has much age (the bottle, the stone indeed has). The stone is a nice example, as you see it has patches of many colors; red, yellow, blue, green etc.
Kind regards
Giovanni


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* IMG_4.jpg (51.52 KB, 900x612 - viewed 15 times.)

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George
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2014, 03:33:19 pm »

Pretty bottle ..

I am not sure the word diasper applies.. As that is a term as best I know more geared towards "gem grade" minerals.. Usually faceting type minerals...

I think what you have is a nice Moss agate..

Great looking bottle, and congrats !
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 08:04:23 pm »

George,
    I would never have thought of calling this 'moss agate'! Someone said recently (maybe it was you), that if in doubt, call it jasper, and that is probably what I would call this material. Alternatively, 'quartz conglomerate'.

Dear Giovanni,
    When I was in Mongolia I came across many bottles similar to this one. They were all reasonably well hollowed - that is to say, following the outside contours, but leaving a relatively thick wall. And both mouth/lip and foot/footrim looked very similar to this one.
    On that basis, I would guess that this bottle is probably mid to late 20th century, and MADE FOR USE, possibly for the Mongolian market.

Tom
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George
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2014, 09:05:54 pm »

George,
    I would never have thought of calling this 'moss agate'! Someone said recently (maybe it was you), that if in doubt, call it jasper, and that is probably what I would call this material. Alternatively, 'quartz conglomerate'.




I will go along with that !  Cheesy
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2014, 09:15:54 pm »

Giovanni,

It looks like miniature oil painting ! Congratulations !

Inn Bok
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2014, 09:28:58 pm »

Inn Bok,

I have a similar bottle, which, if you remember, you called "Fire of Hell". A great name!

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2075.msg27399.html#msg27399

Tom
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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2014, 02:57:06 am »

Thank you dear all.
Dear George, I have a moss agate botltle and in my opinion it is a different type of stone.
Dear Tom, I think that it is different from your one too, which looks more "marble" type than my one.
Dear Inn Bok, I like your point of view, "oil painting" like is really proper for the appearance of the stone. It is exactly the main difference to that of Tom, which has the structure similar to that of marble in my opinion.
I believe that Tom's dating should be correct, the bottle doesn't shows evident signs of age.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2014, 03:39:16 am »


Dear Tom, I think that it is different from your one too, which looks more "marble" type than my one.


Dear Giovanni,
    You are correct - they are quite different in appearance. But I believe that both bottles are composed mainly of quartz, with perhaps a few other minerals mixed in. Certainly, my Mongolian bottle is as hard as quartz; it is definitley not marble. Which is why I described it as quartz conglomerate.

Tom
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2014, 07:24:35 am »

Dear Tom,
I am very ignorant about stones. I was more talking about the appearance, or better the pattern of the different areas. On your bottles the different types of stones are like blotches while on my one they looks more like streaks.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2014, 09:39:39 am »

Hi Giovanni

Nice bottle.

Yes, this bottle is what they classified as jasper bottle, but I would rather called it a stone bottle as the 'traditional' jasper tend to refer to stone of a greenish or brown background.

I like these stone bottles although they are probably new but the material is attractive. If you recalled, I do have a few featured in my blog: Snuff Bottle World (www.snuffbottleworld.net).

For your reference.

Regards.


Richard
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2014, 01:57:58 pm »

Hi Giovanni,

I am actually surpassed by this bottle you posted, I was under the impression that you collect porcelain, very well carved, or labor intensive but artful bottles. For hard stone, I would thought you will be more interested in jade or low relief agate/chalcedony.

Not being critical or judging... But very curious, what do you see in this bottle that makes it worthwhile to collect?

To my untrained eyes, it seem to have the shape on photos similar to some mid 1800s hard stone bottles on a few catalogues (but especially Important Chinese Snuff Bottles including a Privte Europen Collection, Sotheby's Hong Kong, Nov 5, 1997- which is a wonderful book to have... it is even hard covered and I love the description it has in chinese... so different from the english...  but I was shocked at the price tag...). But if you say it is modern, then I am even more confused as to why you would purchase it?

Hi George and Tom,

I have a question... if this is quartz, then it is about as hard as jadeite.... Then will it still have age wear that one will see on softer materials?

If they will not have the age wear, and it looks like (photo wise) a mid-18th though of lower grade material, then how do a person go about deciding if it is modern or old?

Thanks,
David
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2014, 02:36:52 pm »

Dear Richard,
thank you. I didnít know before of your blog, a nice one and good to know about it.
Dear David, I am relatively new in collecting snuff bottles. I am not a real collector in the common sense, first of all because I canít invest money on that. I have a small collection and slowly it may grow, provided that I find a bottle that has some requirements, which mainly are: 1) not expensive, 2) a real bottle, i.e. made for use and not exclusively for display except in some cases, and 3) not new. There are other desired features that I like and, if there, are very appreciated: Chinese taste, artistic merit, artisaní skill, particular materials, etc.
About this bottle in particular, I bought it together with other things at an Antique fair from the same seller. The price was low, I had no similar bottles in my collection, so I bought it. Anyway, it is an honest bottle, I by far prefer this simple bottles, with pure shape intended for use, instead of fantasy  modern bottles that has nothing to do with the traditional Chinese art. In other words, what we in the West call chinoiserie. 
And yes, hard materials like jade can also exhibit wear, it all depends of use.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2014, 04:30:22 pm »

Hi Giovanni,

Oh I see now,  Cheesy So this is a possible new collecting area after Chinese porcelain? Your knowledge and thought process does not sound like a new collector at all!

I am trying to narrow down the areas of snuff bottle (while reading all the books and catalogue I purchased) to start with, which area or type do you think is most neglected by new collectors that are as learnt as you are in Chinese porcelain or another like furniture, jade, carvings, weaponry, painting, true calligraphy etc..?

It's interesting, I agree with 1, 2, 3, and for me, I like things with meanings or uniqueness.

I am 99% sure internal painted, jade and semi precious stone, molded/carved porcelain and organics (of type wood, peel, leather, bone, ivory, shells) is out of contention. Either due to price, or because I don't fell comfortable with them, or don't understand their beauty relative to their larger cousins, or have an personal issue to help create a market for them.

Simple glass, overlay glass, underglaze porcelain, enamel glass, enamel porcelain, enamel metal, agate, chalcedony, and unique shape or deeply symbolic with different layers of any material. These are what I am considering, and trying to figure out interest versus budget versus will I really appreciate if for a long long time.

Will be back to bug you big time, after I start reading up on porcelain  Grin

Warm Regards,
David
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« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2014, 02:21:17 am »

Hi Giovanni,

I thought about your bottle some more and looked through some pictures some more...

I think it might be a good idea to hold on to it until Joey or some of the other expert visit you to let them feel it.

No matter how I look at it, it has a simple solid and strong beauty. If I imagine it is made from Jade or Chalcedony, I think it looks a lot like a 19th century plain polished slightly flattened ovoid body type bottle.

And if it has hardness of 7, I don't see 30 years of use can make those marks.

Just my 2 bronze cents from a very new not yet started collector that have no real experience in anything collecting yet...  Grin

Even if it is modern, I think the solidness fits your personality very well (please take that as a compliment).

Warm regards,
David
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« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2014, 04:53:46 am »

Dear David,
thank you for your kind words. It is not clear to me what you meant with your question. Was you meaning which area WITHIN snuff bottles field? I donít know which area can be of more interest, it depends from personal taste, culture, and so on. What I know for sure is that the Chinese guys here in Italy has ďdiscoveredĒ the snuff bottles. Until a couple of years ago most of them was not interest on them, while now they spend crazy sum for any type of snuff bottle, including the horrible fantasy modern ones.
I too like the same types you mentioned, and have a special attraction by glass bottles imitating other materials.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2014, 05:36:02 am »

Dear David,
    I also think it looks like a good plain 19th C. bottle, but since we have a thread about modern Mongolian stone bottles, made near Shanghai for the Mongolian market and available in the mens' depts in department stores in Ulaanbaatar, according to Tom, who bought a few there  about 10 years ago, we accept that it is in fact a modern bottle made for use.
    Which I think is cool.
Best,
  Joey


Hi Giovanni,

I thought about your bottle some more and looked through some pictures some more...

I think it might be a good idea to hold on to it until Joey or some of the other expert visit you to let them feel it.

No matter how I look at it, it has a simple solid and strong beauty. If I imagine it is made from Jade or Chalcedony, I think it looks a lot like a 19th century plain polished slightly flattened ovoid body type bottle.

And if it has hardness of 7, I don't see 30 years of use can make those marks.

Just my 2 bronze cents from a very new not yet started collector that have no real experience in anything collecting yet...  Grin

Even if it is modern, I think the solidness fits your personality very well (please take that as a compliment).

Warm regards,
David
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« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2014, 04:09:08 pm »

Hi Giovanni,

You're welcome.

I have the feeling that some collectors, collected Chinese arts in the past or concurrently, or would like to collect Chinese arts. But, due to budget (monetary, space/display, knowledge etc....), they might decided to either start here, or shift to here (i.e. moving from a large ranch in Texas to a small apartment in Tokyo!) due to conditions beyond their control, etc...

If I ever start to buy again and decided to give auctions a try, then I would like to know the different types of my competitors and if possible avoid competing with the above kind. So, if I start with an area that they find boring, then I don't have to worry (as much) about competing with people who are used to upping bids by the 10,000s...

If I can identify these kind of bidders are interested in something I am interested, then I can save my budget and time on research to a different bottle and let them bid each other out. I think a good strategy for my budget is to rank the lots in a sale, to different categories, then understand the competitors, and then figure out which category within this I should focus on. There can also be other areas to consider, like timing my bids only in mid auction house, when everyone is looking at a Big 3 auction, or buy a category that did poorly in a big 3 sales, etc...

It is kind of like strategizing a mock conflict, but with armies/supplies/events replaced by auction related equivalents.

There is a book "Art of War by Sun-Tze" that is written/interpreted by a lot of scholars that I loved when I was a kid, and we learned how to think of 10-20 scenarios for each sentence and to "mock" apply them. But, I already forgot most of them already  Huh.

That group you mentioned is the one I want to avoid the most, some of them have very deep pockets and if they like something it is bad for the real collectors.

Thank you, I do see your point. It will be hard to identify an area to avoid this kind of opponent.

Kind Regards,
David



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« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2014, 04:10:12 pm »

Hi Joey,

10 years is an even shorter time for there to be wear on a 7 hardness bottle that is bought as a tourist bottle (for it to end up near Giovanni).  Smiley

I am glad that I at least was able to find a description that is more or less correct  Grin

David
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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2014, 04:53:07 pm »

Dear David,
now I understand what you meant. Well it is not so easy according to my experience. I donít know if you have been at an auction. I follow regularly the auctions here in Italy and a the auctions of a big auction house in Germany. In my experience, you canít plan a strategy indeed, because everything can happens at auctions. You can either see very interesting objects that are not sold and low grade items that are sold at high price. Many times what happens there is really unpredictable. Last May I have seen average snuff bottles sold for crazy prices. Three weeks ago a 19th century vase with the Qianlong mark, correctly dated to the 19th century by the auction house,  fetched 7,500,000 euro! Evidently at least two bidders was convinced that the auction house was wrong and the vase was an Imperial m&p one.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2014, 06:53:29 pm »

On my gosh!!! That is ridiculous! 7.5 mil Euros! For a 19th century vase??? Even if imperial it is not even owned by Qian Long! I hope it is made of real mutton fat nephrite or gem grade imperial jadeite...

I have trouble imagining anyone paying that much for anything except prime real estate, huge houses, or large untreated rubies or blue sapphires.

I have never been to one before, tagging along to a small local auction selling things I am not interested is planned a year or two from now.

Luckily, I am just collecting books and knowledge now  Grin

David

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