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Bi Rongjiu IPB?

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Author Topic: Bi Rongjiu IPB?  (Read 379 times)
rpfstoneman
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« on: November 23, 2014, 11:48:52 am »

All, especially Steven, Pat, and George.

A collector from the Gotheborg site is looking for some insight on the posted bottle below.  This type of bottle is outside my collecting area so Iím not much help.  The information requested (Iím paraphrasing here) is as follows.

1)   Artist and Period.  Is this bottle signed Rongjiu or Bi Rongjiu, and dated Wuxu (1898)?
2)   If so, is the bottle likely by the signed artist and of the stated period?
3)   What is the general quality of this work? 
4)   If by the stated artist is this typical style and quality for their work?
5)   Glass bottle? I presume it is.

Giovanni, did I miss anything with this requested?

Charll


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* GotheborgIPB_2.jpg (55.89 KB, 518x915 - viewed 35 times.)

* GotheborgIPB_3jpg.jpg (69.42 KB, 789x828 - viewed 23 times.)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 11:51:31 am by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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Steven
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2014, 12:14:08 pm »

Dear Charll,

That looks like a moderate Bi Rongjiu bottle too me.

Here are the answers..

1)   Artist and Period.  Is this bottle signed Rongjiu or Bi Rongjiu, and dated Wuxu (1898)?
it signed Rongjiu, dated 1898 if its not falsed dated.
2)   If so, is the bottle likely by the signed artist and of the stated period?
Yes, the style fit it period well, altho not the top quality of Bi's work.
3)   What is the general quality of this work?
His work's quality varied, his best examples are the top of the period.
4)   If by the stated artist is this typical style and quality for their work?
I will say it middle to low lever of his work.

5)   Glass bottle? I presume it is.
It look like glass to me, since Shandong is the source of the glass bottle  during the period, so most of shandong bottle during the period was glass.

I wish it helps.

Steven
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 12:20:27 pm »

As usual, our Steven is spot on !!
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Joey
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2014, 12:48:57 pm »

Dear Steven,
     100 points out of 100!  Cheesy
Best,
 Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

rpfstoneman
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2014, 10:59:27 am »

Thanks for all the input on this bottle, which I did pass onto the owner of the bottle.

Upon further discussion on the Gotheborg site regarding the bottle in post #1 above, some raised the issue that the bottle was too poorly done to be the work of Bi Rongjiu.  They countered with the following which are beautiful works. 


Paul Braga Sale,Bi Rongjiu-Crane Bottle:http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20524/lot/166/

After doing some reading and review in the literature on Bi Rongjiu, I responded with the following information the I found and summarized on Bi Rongjiu.

Quote
The information below is paraphrased from a number of snuff bottle literature sources, and is provided to add some clarity as to why Nina's bottle could be by Bi Rongjiu's hand. If not his, likely one of his immediate students.


Bi Rongjiu was the first one in Shandong who began painting inside bottles in 1893 (later sources say it was 1895). At that time he had a friend who made bottles and provided them to Zhou Leyuan and other painters. Bi apparently learned about inside painting at this time, tried it, and eventually succeeded. There are a great number of bottles attributed to him and many of these are of poor quality with only a few consider exceptional. As reported by Hugh Moss in "The Art of the Chinese Snuff Bottle, The J & J Collection", Bi at his best produced a number of masterpieces. However, he was also a painter capable of churning out decorative paintings of much poorer quality, both artistically and technically, unless these were by the hands of his students.

He passed his skill onto at least one of his two sons, Bi Raosan (Moss) and later to his apprentices Zhao Tuting and Zhang Wentang. All have signed the name of Bi Rongjiu on their own bottles, so a large number of signed Bi Rongjiu bottles are undoubtedly the works of four or more different painters.

Many of the outstanding pieces signed Bi Rongjui are likely done by Zang Wentang who was a prolific painter of inside painted bottles, and some of Zangís works have been collected by the Palace Museum in Taipei. (Sources: A New Look of Chinese Inside Painted Snuff Bottles - J.H. Leung)

Biís early works were never considered to be that good and many collectors that I correspond with gave me the impression that his better or best bottles were produced later in his painting career
.

The question to those that know Bi's work, was my response above accurate?  It appears to be based on the current literature and some of the discussions we've had here.

Charll

P.S.- To all those celebrating the Holiday. Have a Great Thanksgiving, and may joy and blessings be with you and your family during this gathering time of year. 
 

« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 02:32:43 pm by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2014, 12:19:25 pm »

Hi Charll,

I think its a very good summary.

To me, I think that bottle is not poorly done at all, the skill is there, but somehow the bottle is kinda of careless painted. As we all know snuff bottle was not consider to be a serious art form back to then, and its just a daily used commercial product, and if its made for selling low price, it can be painted quickly and kind careless.

If the bottle is not false dated, it could be dated 1898 or 1958, if its 1898, it could be by Bi, if its 1958, then most likely its painted by his later students. But From the shape of the bottle and colors being used , all point a 1898 bottle to me.

Anyway,  the signature on the bottle is like the mark on the porcelains, it should be looked at last As Giovanni said.Smiley.

Steven
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2014, 02:51:54 pm »

Dear Charll,
     The summary is good, and in my opinion, as Steven said, while it is not his top work, it still looks like his work. I would accept the 1898 dating as correct.
Happy Thanksgiving.
I have 12 for an early Turkey dinner tomorrow, and then 8 for Friday evening dinner from the leftovers (the turkey is 18.5 lbs. before cooking; over 6 lbs of yam casserole; 4.5 lbs of stuffing; over 5 lbs of brussel sprouts; plus salad. And we are starting with choumous, tehina and pitot from Abu Shukri, the best in Jerusalem).
Best,
 Joey
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2014, 02:55:00 pm »


OK Everyone, Dinner at Joey's House!  Charll     I just could not resist!  Cheesy
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2014, 02:15:43 am »

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you who celebrate the day !

Inn Bok
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2014, 03:45:27 am »

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you who celebrate the day !

Inn Bok

You to Inn Bok, and everyone else here who celebrates the day !
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2014, 03:55:51 am »

Happy thanksgiving all!! I am celebrating... even in Bangkok. By the way this place is called the city of angels too as is Los Angeles. But I think the name is more appropriate  for here. Haha.


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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2014, 12:35:35 pm »

Dear Charll,
    You and all the others would be most welcome.
I ended up with 15 for early dinner today; I am bringing the food for 8 tomorrow to friends for Sabbath dinner (they are not great cooks! Cheesy); and have made myself a Shabbat lunch 'care package' for Saturday.
Best,
 Joey
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2016, 11:51:08 am »

I bought this bottle recently because it looked so much like the Bi Rongjiu bottle you posted above. However, the signature is not Bi Rongjiu and I can't make it out. I "think" the last character is Xue and so am wondering if it could possibly be by Zhang Wentang signing his artist name Jing Xue?

Could someone please help me with the translation?


* monkeyScholarRock.jpg (41.78 KB, 422x1434 - viewed 31 times.)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 11:53:44 am by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2016, 06:32:04 pm »

I saw this one Cathy.. Congratulations on winning it !

I can not help with this one, and hope someone can help you with it .
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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2016, 06:45:20 pm »

Seems like I am stealing bottles out from under everybody! Sorry George!
I also got the broken dragon in clouds from that same seller.

The painting itself seems awfully close to that other bottle by Rongjiu. I am hoping the translation will be the key to figuring it out. 

This style also reminds me of your beggars bottle a little - minimalist with a very holey scholar's rock - haha! Maybe it belongs to the same school?
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2016, 09:25:24 pm »

I saw this bottle too and I think it may be his or (good) student work.
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2016, 10:41:45 pm »

Oh awesome! Thank you Pat! I'm happy with it either way. The more I look at his work it seems he favored this type of bottle.
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2016, 11:48:59 pm »

Hi Cathy :

I can't figure out all the words on your bottle

But this is what I can gather ... 仿老人.... in imitation and style of an old man/master

The next word or string of words I am not sure, it could be 八大山人....  a very influential painter at end of Ming dynasty, he is from the family of the emperor who was defeated by the Qing.

秋八月.....  autumn, the eighth mth (of the lunar calendar)

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2016, 12:23:52 am »

Thank you so much Pin!!!
I love how once one riddle is solved, it is replaced with another.
And so it is either an imitation of Bi Rongjiu's work or Bi Rongjiu was copying another master.
I wonder who was from the family of an emperor?!

Hope I'm saying this right
谢 谢 您 的 帮 助 (thank you for your help)
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« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2016, 12:49:07 am »

It is funny that I also bought a Cloud and Dragon bottle from this same seller.
Altogether the seller had 6 bottles and they seemed to be by the same artist except this unusual cloud and dragon one, but now after reading Bi Rongjiu's bio I think it belongs to the same group.
I read that Bi Rongjiu gained favor with Dowager Ci-xi when an official presented a Cloud and Dragon bottle of his to her.
And so maybe, just maybe, the old broken dragon in clouds bottles that I've seen can be attributed to Bi Rongjiu!
Although this may be a copy, it would be a copy of the master's work, and so maybe this is what that bottle presented to the Dowager looked like. 

I don't know if there is a thread about these type of bottles, but the interesting thing about them to me is that the black paint makes a beautiful transformation when you turn it in the light. It turns into a fiery gold!



* IMG_8817 (2).JPG (45.5 KB, 600x830 - viewed 19 times.)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 01:11:35 am by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
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