Lapis Snuff Bottle

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear David,
    All your questions are valid, but even after you learn all the theory, you must combine it in your brain and learn by handling and viewing genuine top quality examples, to recognise them when they are offered to you for sale. I was lucky in that I was able at 15 to get a volunteer job at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto, helping them catalogue a superb collection of 800+ top quality snuff bottles of all materials. I learned so much there between March 1972 and June 1973.
Best,
  Joey

[Steven]

Hi David,

I have to agree with Joey, I don't think the member here can answer your question with a single post, it has to be written with a book, even its written a book which it might not be able to cover everything.  there is no any formula to date any single bottle, and there is so many factors involved, materials, shapes, mouth, foot rim, hollowing, carvings, marks, wears,  even all the factors fit the right category, there are always some exceptions.

Collecting is complicated, but sometimes it can be simple as well, its all about the comparison.  Find the right collections, do the comparisons. Handling top bottles is the best opportunities to learn if you have a chance. since the feeling when you handling it is another very important factor. The top collectors like Joey don't need any very tech theories to ID any bottles, when he handle it, he will know, and don't ask why. 

You might feel frustrated when all your questions can not be answered, and we see the enthusiasm, but you know if a simple post can answer your questions, why we still here to learn it every day. You already on the right track, as long as you keep moving forward, you might have the answer for yourself one day.

One last thing, I know you are from the engineer background, that is what I am too, but thinking differently when you collecting.

Steven

[David]

Hi Joey,

That works out so well for you to be able to have that opportunity on something you like. To be surrounded by good items, and to have a bunch of experts to question.

Yes, that will be an issue down the road... I can stare at Sotheby's photo or books all I want... I actually kind of have a solution regarding that issue. I know there are a few antique/chinese art shops in the area, and I recall seeing you mention a good shop in LA? So, after I am done with reading all the books once, selected books another time, question the experts on this forum until they go nuts   , then I plan on visiting them to see if I can find a good store owner or two. And maybe purchase a reasonable entry level real snuff bottle.

I actually am starting to understand what you meant by needing to handle a bottle to judge it's age and quality.

After reading Steve's first few chapter, I did took most of my "better" trinkets and took turns "handling" them with my eyes closed (blind handling in more ways then one   ). It is an interesting experience. I want to try it a few more times taking them out from different areas, before I pick out the top 3 trinket that I like "handling". It actually gave me a very fun way to describe one of them.

Thank you,
David

[David]

Hi Steven,

Thank you, I don't expect to get answers from all my questions. But the actually process of framing the question to the point that is ok to ask an expert/teacher/elder, helps me in organizing my priorities and thought processes. So please don't feel pressured to answer them (I usually don't press or ask a 2nd time, unless it is something I have a large issue with).

That is why I decided for my 6th collection test purchase to be books on snuff bottles and background information to appreciate snuff bottle.   


Thank you for the key reminder, I do over analyze things (even for an engineer) when I get serious. I will try to view it at a higher level and see if I can develop a "six sense" like body postures.

David

[George]

Hi George,

The reason I made that comment from the Mustard book, is that I recall reading elsewhere that the softer the material, the easier it is for the old school craftsman to make a 3D correct carving.  So, after recalling that, I kind of wondered why this material is not carved better.

David

David, the softer material pieces can be completed quicker, but the "ease" for old school lapidaries is not much less difficult to make cameo motifs like this no matter if jade, agate or something soft like lapis..

I have some lapidary experience, and can assure you the lapidary who carved both the bottle, and motif was very skilled.. For people who have played with different minerals in a lapidary shop, it can be easier to understand and see good quality..

Hi David,

I have to agree with Joey, I don't think the member here can answer your question with a single post, it has to be written with a book, even its written a book which it might not be able to cover everything.  there is no any formula to date any single bottle, and there is so many factors involved, materials, shapes, mouth, foot rim, hollowing, carvings, marks, wears,  even all the factors fit the right category, there are always some exceptions.

Collecting is complicated, but sometimes it can be simple as well, its all about the comparison.  Find the right collections, do the comparisons. Handling top bottles is the best opportunities to learn if you have a chance. since the feeling when you handling it is another very important factor. The top collectors like Joey don't need any very tech theories to ID any bottles, when he handle it, he will know, and don't ask why. 

You might feel frustrated when all your questions can not be answered, and we see the enthusiasm, but you know if a simple post can answer your questions, why we still here to learn it every day. You already on the right track, as long as you keep moving forward, you might have the answer for yourself one day.

I agree 100% with Stevens comments for you.. It is complicated, but can be simple as well.. That is one reason I suggest not to overload yourself with trying to "analyze" each and every bottle medium... Pick one or two favored ones, do not let yourself get sidetracked from those.. Buy the appropriate books that best cover those couple of mediums.. Handle when you can good quality examples .. Spend at least a year solely devoted to just the couple of mediums chosen.. Invest, invest and invest in books, spend time reading here on the forum, and learning..

[George]

I think want to add another thought David..  I can only speak for myself, so it may or may not spark a thought with you..

What I am fascinated by as I learn and collect these little treasures is the history, art motifs and paintings portrayed on them.. The Chinese history is so much older and more fascinating than those behind my white boy roots..

Many of the reference books I have are not directly snuff bottle related.. I do not have many, but do have books on Chinese history, the arts, poems, folk tales, concubines/courtesans, symbolism/hidden meanings, etc, etc... 

For me this is the core to collecting bottles...

If your going to continue to purchase tourist type bottles, which to each their own, but maybe give some thought to looking at your trinkets in a little different light.. I completely understand how difficult it is to identify and then be able to purchase more expensive bottles.. So take some advantage to "analyzing" the paintings on the bottles you can afford..  It can be a lot of fun, and has been for me the core from where I learn the most while collecting withing this Chinese antique medium..

Just two cents... 

[OIB]

Geroge,

It is a beautifully carve lapis bottle, the subject of a man carrying a lantern.
My first impression by looking at the carve motif was that the overall flow of the carving appeared fluid.
However, it appears that the edges of the figurine seem to be just plain perpendicular to the surface of the bottle. There is no ' rounded in ' between the carved figure and the bottle. Am i right from my observation of the photos you posted.
My feeling was that the carver could have put in a bit more effort to give the rounded feeling around the figurine and the object he was holding.

Inn Bok

[George]

Yes, your are correct Inn Bok..

In my mind it seems that more effort was required in order to accomplish getting a completely nice finish all the way down into the 90 degree angles between the motif and bottle.. I think it would have been an easier way out for the carver to have rounded instead of the straight perpendicular..

[Wattana]

Good point Inn Bok. Deep under-cutting is usually a sign of modern carving, using high speed equipment.
George,
    If you run your fingers over the carved design you should not feel any sharp edges. If you do, that is usually an indication of a newer bottle.

Tom

[George]

No, none of the edges of the motif are sharp..

[Wattana]

Good sign....! 

[David]

Hi George,

Thank you, I do plan on spending some time to read the books I purchased so far. After that I should have a good idea which 1 or 2 area I will choose to dig in some more. It will be a combination of what I like versus what my budget will allow me 

I am fascinated by rebus, traditions and rituals. So, already stocked up on those, but will need some time to digest them properly. Half of my books are basic Chinese arts background and there is Wiki 

David