About This Forum

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 28, 2024, 04:59:04 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Contact Login Register  

Lapis Snuff Bottle

Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Lapis Snuff Bottle  (Read 1133 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11350


Test


WWW
« on: November 21, 2014, 06:21:53 pm »

This one has me a little perplexed.. Although it lacks a concave mouth, and slightly ground outer edge to the necks edge as we like to see for 19th bottles, the good quality carved base leads me to think possible 19th.. The raised foot rim is not fat, nor is the base flat. Both features that normally I see on all the modern carved bottles.  Overall, the bottle and motif are really nicely finished.. The lapidary really got into all the grooves and finished with nice polish..

Although could have done without the calcite, I was attracted to the pyrite though out, and also do like the overall shape of the bottle..











« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 07:43:20 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

Snuff Bottle Journal

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

Pat - 查尚杰
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3461


Zha Shang Jie 查尚杰


« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2014, 08:18:32 pm »

George

Nice bottle but my feeling is that it doesn't have the right shape to be 19th century. I think it is a very well carved and executed second half 20th century. 
Report Spam   Logged

Best Regards

Pat
查尚杰
Zha Shang Jie

Steven
Global Moderator / Forum Detective
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4101



« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2014, 08:32:35 pm »

Hi George,

I have a good feeling about this bottle, I think it well be a 19th bottle, the carving is certainly not the modern style. I actually bought another bottle from the seller, I did see his collections, he has a very decent collection  altho not the top quality, all from 19th to early 20th, I believe the whole collections are from 60s to 70s including all the stoppers and stands.

Good  purchase on this one!

Steven
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 01:22:17 am by Steven » Report Spam   Logged

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11350


Test


WWW
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2014, 09:04:59 pm »

Yes, I am leaning towards 19th as well Steven.. Even though I do see Pats point about not being traditionally what we see in shape for a 19th..

I was able to work out a buy it now price just after it was listed so did not have to go through auction... I really think this would have fetched at least a few hundred.. I have seen a whole lot worst lapis carved bottles sell at the big auction houses for thousands..

Steven, which bottle did you get from this seller..  I think both the other two that just ended this evening are 19th..
Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

Snuff Bottle Journal
Steven
Global Moderator / Forum Detective
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4101



« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2014, 10:21:53 pm »

I got a red iron red dragon porcelain one, which is not the best example, but I like it, I will share with all tomorrow.
Report Spam   Logged

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2014, 01:08:26 am »

Hi George,

I actually have a whole string of questions on how to identify late 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, imperial versus commoner raised to ranks versus commoner. But, I am going to refrain from running my typing until I read all the books at least one time first.

You mentioned that it is missing the concave mouth and slightly grounded outer edge to neck edge...

Does the neck look a little short and unbalanced relative to the body (or is this they way it should look)? If too short, maybe someone cut and sanded the neck as a cheap fix?

I saw you fixed a badly chipped neck with a silver neck-cap(?), it looks a little odd as it is metal, but I think it is good because the ratio looks good.

David

Report Spam   Logged

David

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11350


Test


WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2014, 01:13:20 am »


You mentioned that it is missing the concave mouth and slightly grounded outer edge to neck edge...

Does the neck look a little short and unbalanced relative to the body (or is this they way it should look)? If too short, maybe someone cut and sanded the neck as a cheap fix?





No, the neck is not to short and yes, perfectly balanced relative to the body.. Safe to say it did not loose a concave mouth due to any grinding..
Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

Snuff Bottle Journal
David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2014, 01:17:50 am »

Thank you, George.

Is it because I forgot to imagine it with a top?

Or is it after you gain enough experience looking at bottles without top, that you start to see a different kind of balance?

David
Report Spam   Logged

David

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2014, 01:36:12 am »

Hi George and Steven,

Almost forgot...   Cheesy I was lost in the thought of thinking about whys again... sometimes I wish that part of my mind have an off switch. It will make my life so much simpler.

There are a few specific question...

This is a very nicely carved/polished bottle (to my untrained eyes), the carving look smooth and the intersection of the figure to the bottle has no gouges.

I just checked the mohs hardness is ~5. I am curious, if it take 1 day (just an example) to carve/polish this bottle in the 19th century. How long will it take to polish a similar bottle but if it is out of jadeite?

Why is thickness of foot rim and flat/hollowed out base an identification feature for dating?

A flat base will mean that it is hard to stand up level and firm, any little unevenness or little bumps on the surface may cause the bottle to be unstable and easily tipped over.

A thin foot rim that is just thick enough for the material/fissures, should be the best trade off between losing balance and looking nice.

Are these 2 considerations, more of a design quality indication instead of a dating indications?

David
Report Spam   Logged

David

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11350


Test


WWW
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2014, 05:00:23 am »

David.. I can not answer to the length of time it would have taken to carve this if 19th, as compared to jade or even agate of the same period.. Obviously lapis would take less time..

As to the thickness of foot rim..  When we look at 18th/19th century carved bottles, we hope to see all or some specific carving attributes if done by a skilled lapidary of the Periods.. A couple that we like to see is a concave mouth, and a beveled edge to the outer edge of the neck ( lip ) of which we hope gracefully meets the shoulder.  In addition we want to see the bottle well hollowed, and yes, there is great importance placed on the foot rim.

It takes far more skill to end up with a raised and thin foot rim, evenly carved around the entire perimeter of the base.  This can only be accomplished by a skilled lapidary who takes care in paying attention to the little details.. Yet different than a broad flat foot rim popular from around the Middle Daoguang like a Jet bottle Tom recently shared, of equal carved quality to the foot rim..

I am extra picky about sanding and polishing in great detail.. I expect to see very high end finish on all 18th and 19th century carved bottles.. Zero grinding or sanding marks within any part of the motif, or to the body of the bottle.. A bottle can have all the other indicators to being Qianlong, but if I see any abrasive marks at all, I will not consider purchasing it..

It is each of these individual details that are "indicators" to fine Qianlong quality.. Either combined as a whole, or in parts..

One more thing to note about lapis with a mix of calcite.. It takes extra good skills to run tooling across an edge/contour and maintain that edge/contour without "dipping" into the calcite which is much softer than the lapis..  Hard to explain, but it shows this lapidary was very skilled..   Again, it's the little indicators..  Smiley

Hope this helps a little.. 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 06:21:25 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

Snuff Bottle Journal
Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 6133



« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2014, 06:17:59 am »

George,

I agree with your overall observations regarding the carving quality. This bottle was indeed carved by a skilled lapidary. But the bottle's shape has me placing this one in the early to mid 20th century. Always hard to tell from photos, of course. Perhaps I would revise that opinion if I handled it.

Tom
Report Spam   Logged

Collecting since 1971

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11350


Test


WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2014, 06:23:38 am »

You and Pat may well both be correct Tom ...
Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

Snuff Bottle Journal
Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11282


« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2014, 07:13:03 am »

    I like the carving, and the material, but can't decide between ca.1850-1900 or ca.1900-1950, because I can't judge the shape from the view edge on.  Can we get a face on photo of the bottle, George?
Best,
 Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
 
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11350


Test


WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 09:25:15 am »


Thanks for asking Joey, and here ya go...

2 5/16" tall..

« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 09:33:48 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

Snuff Bottle Journal
Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11282


« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 10:40:25 am »

Thank you, George, but I still can't decide; so I'll give it a tentative dating of ca. 1850-1980.
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2014, 10:15:01 pm »

Hi George,

Thank you for teaching me about the carving/polish quality.

Regarding the beveled edge of the neck meeting the shoulder. Do you mean that if we take a rigid flat ruler and lay it flat to the beveled edge, then the ruler will lightly contact with the shoulder, at the furthest point? Or is there another way to quantify "graceful meeting"?

In Steven's book, there are rounded and sloping shoulders. Does the "graceful meeting" applies to these also? (I assume that this one is round/sloping)

Does it apply to all materials or just hard stone, ivory, glass and porcelain (materials that are more likely to end up with a chip on a square corner/edge)?

I actually have a trinket that I was not planning to post, as it is was a possible 2 piece "snuff dish", which I kind of realize that there seem to be no such thing Cheesy. I will look around for it and take a photo of the foot rim, please let me know if that is ok quality or very low quality.

The foot rim on this bottle, is also raised/splayed? Is that the norm for older bottle?

From a material point of view, won't it make better sense to not have raised/splayed? (Or is lapis not brittle and not prone to chipping?)


I was thinking about this bottle earlier, one thing I don't quite understand. I did not notice any scratches or gouges (post completion) from wear and tear on the close up of the carved figure. With a hardness around glass, shouldn't there be some signs of wear for a 100-200 year old bottle?

I also can not figure out who the carved figure stands for, nor can I rationalize a motif for the lantern as the person holding does not look auspicious....

Is this a tourist bottle? (Is it well hollowed for use or lightly hollowed for show?)

Last question (for now Grin ), With the frontal photo Joey requested...
I don't think the bottlemaker took into consideration, the natural pattern of the stone. The figure is now lost in the pattern. I also checked the wiki and see that the stone is not native to China, so it might be considered somewhat uncommon in the past... Wouldn't they take more care on a rare material to enhance the natural pattern?

After I thought of that, I recalled something from the Mustard book... The carving is "flat" looking, as the face and the lantern have no feeling of depth. Actually looking at the face again... it looks "lifeless"...

To me, it looks uncomfortable as I can not focus on the carving or the pattern from the front. I actually prefer to look at the back, just my preference. So, wondering if this a tourist bottle...

And if you agree with me that it is flat/lifeless when you look at the real thing, and there are no scratches/wear, missing the neck details, and not well hollowed then maybe it is more likely to be a modern tourist bottle?

David




« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 10:17:05 pm by David » Report Spam   Logged

David

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2014, 10:19:39 pm »

Hi Joey,

I can't believe a different angled photo can make such a big difference!  Shocked

Going to note that along with the other things George mentioned.

Thanks,
David
Report Spam   Logged

David

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2014, 10:22:59 pm »

Hi Tom,

Pat and you both mentioned bottle shape, why is this bottle shape early to mid 20th? Is there some kind of evolution path for hard stone bottle shape?

Thanks,
David
Report Spam   Logged

David

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2014, 11:04:16 pm »

Hi George,

I just took a look at it  Cheesy, it is low quality... no need to show you.

David
Report Spam   Logged

David

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2014, 11:14:21 pm »

Hi George,

The reason I made that comment from the Mustard book, is that I recall reading elsewhere that the softer the material, the easier it is for the old school craftsman to make a 3D correct carving.  So, after recalling that, I kind of wondered why this material is not carved better.

David
Report Spam   Logged

David

Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal