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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
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Single Carved Glass Overlay

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Author Topic: Single Carved Glass Overlay  (Read 1283 times)
Joey
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« Reply #80 on: December 27, 2014, 11:02:43 am »

Dear YT,
   Good news/bad news time.  Grin

Good news: It is definitely overlay, NOT applique. Applique glass snuff bottles have MUCH simpler designs.
Think single stem flower, where flower head and leaves are applique pieces, and the stems connecting to the flower head and leaves are then also applied as molten thread. This bottle is way too complicated a design to possibly be applique.

Bad news: It is ca.1960-2000, as Charll and George already said, and may well crack, as the ones Tom has posted. The mark may be well done, but if it is ca. 1960-on, does it matter?  Wink
Best, and better luck next time,
Joey

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

YT
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« Reply #81 on: December 28, 2014, 12:22:59 am »

Dear Joey,

That is both good news to me as I want to know the dating of the bottles although the cracking will be bad news in the future.

I bought quite a number of bottles without much research and bottle sorting is causing me a headache. The help that I am getting here is totally unbelievable. Both for the immerse knowledge pool in this forum and a learning curve for myself. 

Cheers,
YT
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Wattana
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« Reply #82 on: December 28, 2014, 11:54:12 pm »

Dear YT,

I hope I am wrong, but your green overlay 'chicks' bottle looks very similar to one of my badly crizzled bottles, shown in an earlier post: 
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1588.msg18966.html#msg18966

As you can see, my bottle also has a square seal mark (on right shoulder of lower photo). I never bothered to check the seal mark at the time I bought it, so not sure what it says. It's now too badly damaged to read anyway.

Photos at left are how the bottle looked when I bought it, and the ones at right show how it looked around 6 years later. It's even worse now!  Sad

Tom
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 12:01:44 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
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YT
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« Reply #83 on: December 29, 2014, 02:16:53 am »

Dear YT,

I hope I am wrong, but your green overlay 'chicks' bottle looks very similar to one of my badly crizzled bottles, shown in an earlier post: 
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1588.msg18966.html#msg18966

As you can see, my bottle also has a square seal mark (on right shoulder of lower photo). I never bothered to check the seal mark at the time I bought it, so not sure what it says. It's now too badly damaged to read anyway.

Photos at left are how the bottle looked when I bought it, and the ones at right show how it looked around 6 years later. It's even worse now!  Sad

Tom

Dear Tom,

Yes the bottles does looked like its from the same factory. There are no signs at the moment and I will hope to let you know in 6 years time Grin

Thanks for pointing me to the link.

Cheers,
YT
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Wattana
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« Reply #84 on: December 29, 2014, 02:27:40 am »

Dear YT,

My bottle showed no signs of deterioration for the first year or two. At first the degradation was very minor, but now the bottle sheds a fine white powder, so I have to keep it sealed inside a plastic bag.

Fingers crossed they improved the glass-making recipe when yours was made.

Tom
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Tom
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Joey
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« Reply #85 on: December 29, 2014, 08:02:31 am »

Dear Tom,
    In what conditions was your bottle kept? If in the humid Bangkok air, possibly YT should keep his in a airtight sealable plastic box with silica gel to keep it dry.
    It might be possible to preserve it better with different humidity and climactic conditions.  Presuming that YT wants to go to such lengths to preserve a modern bottle like this.
 Best,
   Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Wattana
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« Reply #86 on: December 29, 2014, 08:37:44 am »

Dear Joey,
     I kept it in the dark inside a compartmentalized drawer with other bottles. It was in normal climatic conditions for Bangkok (i.e. temp range 25-32 degrees C, humidity medium to high) year round. I only took it out 1-2 times a year, so didn't notice it had started to crizzle until well into the second year, or maybe even the third. But thereon after it went downhill quite rapidly. I only bagged it when fine white powder started to line the drawer, as if it was exfoliating. I didn't want it 'contaminating' the other bottles.
     What you suggest may have slowed down the process of disintegration, but if you have to go to those lengths to preserve a modern glass bottle it's simply not worth the effort, in my opinion.

Tom
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Tom
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YT
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« Reply #87 on: December 29, 2014, 08:47:56 am »

Dear Joey,

I agree with Tom on the extra efforts needed for modern bottles.
All my bottles are kept in individual plastic bags.
Thank you for the ever accessible deep knowledge and stories.

Happy 2015 ahead everyone and good luck in all future hunts.

Cheers,
YT
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Joey
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« Reply #88 on: January 02, 2015, 10:00:54 am »

Dear Tom & YT,
    I well understand the concept of 'diminishing returns', but sometimes an otherwise inconsequential bottle might have sentimental value way above its monetary or cultural value.
Best,
 Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2015, 08:48:44 am »

Joey and YT,

My understanding is that the bottle deteriorates over a number of years not because of the climatic influences. Rather it is due to the manufacturing process of the bottle. Incorrect mix of the ingredients and the poor control of the cooling process that causes some build-up of internal stresses in the glass bottle. This manifests over time. I have a few IPB and overlays that suffered this kind of fate ! Sad Angry

Inn Bok
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YT
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« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2015, 09:13:29 pm »

Dear Inn Bok,

I agree with your point and it is only a matter of time before the cracks will form if they belong to this particular production.

It is a pity as some of these overlays are really attractive. Also some of the inside paintings that uses this period of glass produce is in danger too.

Cheers,
YT
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Joey
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« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2015, 05:21:31 am »

Dear Inn Bok,
   You are most probably correct, but I thought that one might be able to slow down the deterioration. Or possibly, some days they got it a little better than others.
   Like the joke about not buying a car made on a Friday or on a Monday: On a Friday, the workers are looking forward to getting drunk and not paying attention; On a Monday, they are getting over their weekend hangovers.  Wink Grin
Best,
Joey


Joey and YT,

My understanding is that the bottle deteriorates over a number of years not because of the climatic influences. Rather it is due to the manufacturing process of the bottle. Incorrect mix of the ingredients and the poor control of the cooling process that causes some build-up of internal stresses in the glass bottle. This manifests over time. I have a few IPB and overlays that suffered this kind of fate ! Sad Angry

Inn Bok
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #92 on: April 15, 2016, 08:30:30 am »

Dear Joey,

I am very grateful for all the words of wisdom that you have given in the threads, but there is, however, one point you make here that I am not sure what you mean.

You stated “ONLY if it passes all hurdles, and I feel the price is not too high (up to 20% OVER accepted market value), will I buy it.”

Do you mean by market value, the auction price including the commission, without the commission, or the retail price.

As I am sure you know, auction prices are notoriously unpredictable and can often be unreliable, they can go down as well as up, so how do you work out a suitable price for a piece?

Is the 20% over the market price simply to allow for a dealer's profit margin on the auction price?

Please excuse my ignorance and thank you in anticipation of your further guidance.

Kindest regards,

Paul.
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Joey
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« Reply #93 on: April 15, 2016, 11:22:39 am »

Dear Paul,

     I must apologise about my lack of clarity.

     Among veteran snuff bottle collectors, there is an agreed 'scale' of value for each type of bottle.

     For example, in 1984 at the first LA convention of the ICSBS, I purchased a plain 18th C. Turquoise snuff bottle, the second finest Turquoise bottle I'd ever seen (the finest was an Imperial Palace Workshops bottle with an Imperial Yongzheng mark & period, belonging till 2012 to  Suzanne Ault, the late John Ault's first wife. It was sold by Robert Hall ltd., London in the last 4 years).

    At the time US$1,200-1,400 was the 'accepted value' for a plain 18th C. Turquoise bottle.  I  happily paid US$1,800 for this superb one (#35 in my 1987 Israel Museum catalogue). A number of friends honestly tried to convince me I'd overpaid and should return it. One dishonest person tried to because he wanted to buy it for himself! I enjoyed it till my friend Clare Chu sold most of my collection for me, in 1992-1995. It sold for US$18,000, and Clare received her 10% commission.

   I'm sorry I can't give you a scale of 'accepted values' for different types of bottles. I will ask some other veteran collector friends, and 'revert to you' (get back to you in Irish legalese! Grin Roll Eyes ).
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey



Dear Joey,

I am very grateful for all the words of wisdom that you have given in the threads, but there is, however, one point you make here that I am not sure what you mean.

You stated “ONLY if it passes all hurdles, and I feel the price is not too high (up to 20% OVER accepted market value), will I buy it.”

Do you mean by market value, the auction price including the commission, without the commission, or the retail price.

As I am sure you know, auction prices are notoriously unpredictable and can often be unreliable, they can go down as well as up, so how do you work out a suitable price for a piece?

Is the 20% over the market price simply to allow for a dealer's profit margin on the auction price?

Please excuse my ignorance and thank you in anticipation of your further guidance.

Kindest regards,

Paul.
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #94 on: April 15, 2016, 11:52:38 am »

Hello Joey,

Thank you so much for your early reply.

Although I understand what you are saying, can you equate for me whether the auction price including the commission, or the auction price without the commission, or the retail price would be the closest to your 'accepted market value' or your agreed 'scale' of value. Or does the agreed 'scale' of value among veteran snuff bottle collectors fall below or higher than the examples I have given.

Also does the 20%+ relate to the love of the item or is it solely the investment over time factor?

Sorry to labour the point, but I need to understand the levels at which veteran snuff bottle collectors operate at to know whether I would be paying the right amount.

Kind regards,

Shabbat Shalom,

Paul.



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Joey
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« Reply #95 on: April 15, 2016, 06:54:16 pm »

Dear Paul,

      I was going to state that auction prices had no connection, but then realised that while individual items might have no relation, if one takes all the Jade bottles in an auction, adds up the total value and divides it by the number of Jade bottles, that does contribute to the accepted value of a type.

      Many times, retail prices are higher than the auction prices plus commission, but not always. Sometimes, a dealer is adversely affected by cash-flow or has a chance to acquire a fine collection and needs funds quickly; or other issues, such as friendship, or having got the object at a better price, and passing on the savings, contributes to a better price for the buyer. And don't forget that most if not all dealers are collectors at heart, and may be led by their hearts to 'help' a serious collector get something he really loves, at the expense of higher profits. It has happened to me a number of times, so I know it happens. And read the Stefan Zweig short story I posted in The Lounge.

     If you were to combine the prices charged by private dealers; the auction hammer prices plus commission; and collectors' guesstimates of a specific type; and divide the price by the number of bottles sold, you will get a good average price of a snuff bottle.

    I'm not sure it is possible to get more exact than this.
Best Wishes,
Shabbat Shalom,
Best,
Joey


Hello Joey,

Thank you so much for your early reply.

Although I understand what you are saying, can you equate for me whether the auction price including the commission, or the auction price without the commission, or the retail price would be the closest to your 'accepted market value' or your agreed 'scale' of value. Or does the agreed 'scale' of value among veteran snuff bottle collectors fall below or higher than the examples I have given.

Also does the 20%+ relate to the love of the item or is it solely the investment over time factor?

Sorry to labour the point, but I need to understand the levels at which veteran snuff bottle collectors operate at to know whether I would be paying the right amount.

Kind regards,

Shabbat Shalom,

Paul.




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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2016, 03:59:33 am »

Dear Joey,

Thank you for your very detailed answer. You told me everything and nothing and I still trying to work out if I am any wiser.

But I do love your words.


Kindest regards,
Shabbat Shalom,

Paul.
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