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Single Carved Glass Overlay

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Author Topic: Single Carved Glass Overlay  (Read 1263 times)
YT
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« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2014, 09:56:41 pm »

Here is a simple little dragon bottle that is single carved glass overlay.  It is an early bottle that appeals to me. Hope you enjoy viewing it. 
Dear Jo,

That is a nice bottle  Smiley. It is like a Ming dynasty 'ChiLong' body with a cute Qing dynasty Dragon head.

Cheers,
YT
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David
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« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2014, 12:33:41 am »

Hi Steven,

That is a shame, but understandable... like so many other traditional arts and traditions. All dying out.

I assume this one is not Imperial. Then is this one a Hsin family bottle?

For reference purpose. If this one counts as 7/8 from a scale of 1 to 9 (imperial like YT's dream hulu bottle and Joey's eggplant bottle- maybe 9+ for that one-).

From your personal point of view, where will Inn Bok's artful modern hulu score? Where will my red dragon score? Where will a modern top single layer that can be bought brand new be now? Not from value, age, rebus sensibility,  etc... point of view. But, from the carve workmanship and the artfulness/likeness of the content.

Do most collector categorize bottles in the following way, instead of worrying so much about a date?

Imperial (pre Qian Long, during Qian Long, during Jia Qing/DaoGuang and then post DaoGuang)
with mid to late Qian Long and early Jia Qing as the pinnacle? (~1810)

Domestic Non Imperial (During Qian Long, during Jia Qing/Dao Guang, during Xian Feng and post Xian Feng)
with late Qian Long till early Dao Guang as the pinnacle? (~1840)

Export top grade commissioned and export mass produced.

Thank you,
David



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« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2014, 12:39:59 am »

Hello Joearp,

I agree with YT, it has a cute (and I will add naughty look) head. It is just amazing that they can put in human emotions onto all these animals face/postures or sometimes even trees/plants.

It makes this one so interesting to look at.

Best Regards,
David
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« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2014, 12:43:12 am »

Dear Joey,

Sorry to hear that.

I hope your sister in law's cousin is doing fine. My thoughts will be added for them tonight.

Shabbat Shalom,
David
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David

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« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2014, 01:13:30 am »

Hello Charll,

Out of curiosity, if after I finish the current phase of studying and then decide that I would like to purchase a couple of modern overlay to enjoy (while waiting for real ones that I like to become available at a reasonable price).

Where can I find a good one like Inn Bok's artful Hulu or ones that will not suffer the fate of "cracking"? Will they also do custom work (like asking them to not put so much on a bottle, or to specify a certain rebus or person - I admire Guan Gong and Yue Fei the most.)?

Best Regards,
David
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« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2014, 12:58:55 pm »

Hi Steven,

That is a shame, but understandable... like so many other traditional arts and traditions. All dying out.

I assume this one is not Imperial. Then is this one a Hsin family bottle?

For reference purpose. If this one counts as 7/8 from a scale of 1 to 9 (imperial like YT's dream hulu bottle and Joey's eggplant bottle- maybe 9+ for that one-).

From your personal point of view, where will Inn Bok's artful modern hulu score? Where will my red dragon score? Where will a modern top single layer that can be bought brand new be now? Not from value, age, rebus sensibility,  etc... point of view. But, from the carve workmanship and the artfulness/likeness of the content.

Do most collector categorize bottles in the following way, instead of worrying so much about a date?

Imperial (pre Qian Long, during Qian Long, during Jia Qing/DaoGuang and then post DaoGuang)
with mid to late Qian Long and early Jia Qing as the pinnacle? (~1810)

Domestic Non Imperial (During Qian Long, during Jia Qing/Dao Guang, during Xian Feng and post Xian Feng)
with late Qian Long till early Dao Guang as the pinnacle? (~1840)

Export top grade commissioned and export mass produced.

Thank you,
David





Hi David,

I really don't know if the bottle I posted is a imperial bottle or not, but it really doesn't matter if the quality of the bottle is that high lever, the bottle's value is not less than any imperial glass bottles, or even higher sometimes. collecting snuff bottle is different from collecting other antiques,  The Quality is the more important than it being  imperial .

The bottle I posted is certainly 9 of 9 score, if I have to put a number on Innbok,s and your bottle. regardless the age, I will put 6-7 on Innbok's without seeing the detail( since I can't see the detail of the carving based on a low res image),  and yours will be 4-5. ofcoz, that is only my opinion.

Steven



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« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2014, 05:25:46 pm »

Hi Steven,

Thank you!

Finally, now I have something solid to compare to and use as a reference point regarding carve work. I think highly of your opinion, as artists have a different kind of eye/perception from most people.

Out of curiosity, what will be the most difficult technical part of the carving for the bottle you posted? Should I focus more on the overlay surface/side workmanship, or should I focus more on the grounds and the under carving to make the surface "pop"?

And which one is the most lively (crane, monkey, tree, rock, auspicious plants and fungus) or that you feel have a larger presence of "chi"?



Thank you,
David



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« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2014, 10:24:41 am »

David,
   Look at the quality of the background. It should be as smooth as possible. It is not technically hard to carve the overlay, or add detail to its surface. It is very hard to get a mirror-like finish on the background in between the bits of overlay.
   For example, take a Qianlong period  red overlay I bought at auction in London, Spring 1989, with an Imperial design of cash and ropework; the  ropework was very well incised with lines to look 'rope-like', but what made it great was the Imperial design and the superb polish of the camphor glass background.
   If a decoration is 'appliqued' on, the background polish is not important. This is when design elements are made separately from the bottle, and then appliques and bottle are re-heated and appliques applied to bottle surface, with molten glass 'threads' used to connect the appliques to each other. Most of these are late 19th C., and feature applique flower heads and leaves, with the stems done in molten glass 'threads'.
   When you look at an overlay, look at the carving's connection to the bottle surface at an angle. You will see that the cutting goes into the surface material, because it is impossible for the cutter to 'just' cut the overlay material. If the background is not cut into, it must be applique, not overlay.

  Hope this clarifies things a bit.
Joey
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« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2014, 11:36:45 am »

Dear Joey,

I need some more time to think and check my references, but I believe that clarifies a big point of confusion regarding detail points to weight for me.

Gratefully,
David
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« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2014, 12:26:37 pm »

Thanks for the thoughtful and informative explanation Joey. Well done!
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« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2014, 02:09:17 pm »

I agree... Great explanation Joey...
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David
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« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2014, 12:45:03 am »

Dear Joey,

It is at least one order of magnitude harder to polish the grounds. I tried polishing wood and now totally understand the difficulty to have a smooth symmetrical ground.

I was weighting the ground way too lightly. In the future for overlay carved or hard stones with relief, I will rank the ground right after whether I like the design or not.

Warmly and shocked,
David
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« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2014, 04:50:07 pm »

Dear David,
    Try to weigh ALL points before buying a bottle. When I look at a bottle, I always try to find reasons why NOT to buy.
   First, if I don't like it esthetically.
Then, if I do like it, but there is a problem, such as hollowing, or the finish of the surface, or damage, or a badly made footrim or neck or mouth, or age, etc.
   ONLY if it passes all hurdles, and I feel the price is not too high (up to 20% OVER accepted market value), will I buy it.
Best,
Joey



Dear Joey,

It is at least one order of magnitude harder to polish the grounds. I tried polishing wood and now totally understand the difficulty to have a smooth symmetrical ground.

I was weighting the ground way too lightly. In the future for overlay carved or hard stones with relief, I will rank the ground right after whether I like the design or not.

Warmly and shocked,
David
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2014, 04:52:24 pm »

Guys,
   I'm happy to share whatever knowledge I've amassed after almost 45 years collecting snuff bottles. Kind people both inside and outside the field helped me, and it is only right to pass it on.
   My pleasure.
Joey
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« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2014, 11:30:59 pm »

Dear Joey,

Thank you, I will take that to heart. And will seriously think about the premium trigger versus time.

Quote
always try to find reasons why NOT to buy

Warmly,
David
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« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2014, 01:49:23 am »

David,

Sorry to have owed you some responses.

1. The size of my pink hulu bottle : 47mm high (w/o stopper) x 28mm ( lower half ) x 24mm ( upper half ).
    The brownish deer bottle : 69mm x 28 mm.

2. For many Chinese collectors, we use these three words to guide our collection :
    真 ( pronounced as ' zhen ' ) = authentic, not fake
    精 ( jing ) = excellent quality / craftsmanship, and
    美 ( mei ) = aesthetic, beautiful

    Of course, I pay my ' tuition fees ' as i try to apply the above guide in my snuff bottle collection, especially with regards to 真 ( both the dates as well as the author, and also in terms of materials ).

i will continue when I am back. have to see someone right now.

Inn Bok
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« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2014, 02:36:24 am »

Hello Inn Bok,

Please don't be, I understand most people are very busy. Thank you for remembering.

Thank you for taking the time to share the three words essence, I will think more on that. Each one is so hard, and to find a balance of that relative to budget and temptation of taking the current or waiting on chance for the next is even harder.

The pink hulu bottle is even more impressive at that size, no wonder you like it so much. I can't imagine how he/she was able to do it.

Warm Regards,
David
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« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2014, 03:50:27 am »

David,

To continue .....

Each of us has our own taste and our lenses to look at an object of art and craft. Also, our individual yardstick for ' excellence ' varies. Yes, looking at finer ones in the collection of fellow collectors will definitely lift up our own standards of ' aesthetics yardstick ', however, as Joey mentioned in his post, the last decision hurdle is whether I have the means and prepared to part with it for the that lovely little bottle ( especially in todays market for excellent snuff bottles ).

So one begins with his own level of 真精美,and upgrade as one moves on the journey of collection. The main thing is that I must enjoy holding that bottle in my hand or being destressed when I look at it and fonder it !!

Here is another piece of overlay bottle for sharing ( 55mm x 23mm ).

Inn Bok


* IMG_7598.JPG (167.59 KB, 768x1024 - viewed 19 times.)

* IMG_7600.JPG (168.92 KB, 768x1024 - viewed 14 times.)
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« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2014, 02:11:13 pm »

Hello Inn Bok,

Thank you for showing me this wonderful bottle and for taking the time to share the poetic advice. I will prepare well first and then decide on a level to start at.

It have a lot of elements, but is very integrated and still feels spacious with the nice usage of emptiness between the far mountains and near scenery. These that allows freedom for my imagination, are close to my interest.

It combines the high relief and shading effect so nicely. The rock base is strong and water buffalo's head looks as if it is about to turn... the polish on the horn are incredible, the way it catches the light perfectly.

The ground looks different, is this what they call the "white lard" glass?

The layering of the ground (first photo, lower right side of the the mountain, and closet pine leaf to back of the water buffalo. Is that done on purpose to give a stronger feeling of depth while keeping the overall level when held in the hand? Or to hide the water buffalo when viewing the temple/rest area? The neck and the other areas of the ground are so nicely done, I can't think of other reasons.

I know the bottle shape is round, but will I be wrong if I say it was made in the 1810-1850 and is a top level?

I just realized something while looking at this bottle. To get the high relief like the rock base, that means that the overlay layer has to be thicker. Then it makes it a lot harder to execute the shading effect of thin layers for this darker color. Is this a correct consideration?

I see the 精美 in this for sure, is it also 真?

Grateful Regards,
David
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« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2014, 02:13:23 pm »

Inn Bok- I very much agree with the three words that guide your collecting. These are very important principals for us all to keep in mind.  Thanks for the bottle you just shared, very nice indeed.
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