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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 21, 2018, 02:57:20 pm
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Single Carved Glass Overlay

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Author Topic: Single Carved Glass Overlay  (Read 1297 times)
David
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« on: November 21, 2014, 12:58:09 am »

Please note if you see the following notes on my posting. It means that those were purchased prior to joining this forum and starting to learn about this area. I will take one person's advice and only post (after 12/1/2014) those that I think are tourist/student bottle.

Please note: These were purchased prior to my joining this forum. All were bought prior to me taking a more serious view of learning about this area. So, please give constructive comments regarding, why this is a tourist/student bottle (if it is), and within this category, is it a good piece or not.

Hi Joey,

Here is the one I was talking about. Please give me assessment of this bottle, it is very important for me. This was originally planned to be the 2nd to the last bottle/trinket I present.

But, after looking at 4 important catalogs, your catalog 1987, and 3 other books. I can not find a similar one yet. It might be in one of the high priced one that is still being shipped. But, I am too curious, as all the information seems to imply it is real and possibly imperial or very high quality.

Please give me an idea of whether is it real, a best guess age range subject to future physical verification. And if possible an similar bottle from a past auction so I can have an idea.


And just for fun  Grin  Here is my attempt at writing in the style of auction catalogue (keep in ming, I am letting my mind go WILD! ):

A very rare single overlay glass Snuff Bottle, Huh, of baluster form supported on a raised and slightly splayed (between overlay and body)  footrim.

A little over 4 cm tall, a little under 3.5 cm wide.
One chip at footrim.

The snowflake ground decorated in ruby red by the harmonious union of a four-clawed straw dragon and the three-feather tailed female phoenix with carved three taloned claws perched on longevity rocks.

As a four clawed dragon robes in the Qing dynasty are reserved for a prince of the 3rd rank, it is my humble opinion that this bottle was commissioned for such a person.

The quality of the carving on such a small body, ideal placements, and lifelike curves of the descending dragon bringing with it a flaming pearl to the waiting phoenix, coupled with the ruby red color, strongly hints at the possibility that this pair of bottle is for celebrating a pending marriage to a prince of the 3rd rank.

Due to the extremely small size of the bottle, I further offer that this pair is for the bride.


 Grin  Please don't roll off the chair laughing, this is my first attempt. I would love to find a similar one and study how it is written.

David


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« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 12:35:48 pm by David » Report Spam   Logged

David

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David
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2014, 01:21:35 am »

Hi Joey,

I played with the light setting some more and these should be better for the top and base.

David


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Steven
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2014, 01:36:00 am »

Hi David,

Nice description for the bottle, altho I would say its a snowflake ground instead of the bubble suffused ground.Smiley

I would say it looks like a real thing to me, could be dated later 19th-20th, the stopper is a typical later stopper from 70s.

Sadly it has nothing to do with Imperial or high quality tho, you might not be able to find exactly same bottles on any serious collections, but you might  be able to some find higher quality ones of ruby red on snowflake overlay bottles. do some comparisons with those bottles, you will understand what is higher quality. But that is a good study bottle for new collectors, next time when you have another chance to buy a similar one, you can compare with this bottle.

Steven
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2014, 01:57:32 am »

Hi Steven,

Thanks,  Cheesy I need to get the most bang out of my bucks. It is more exciting to note it like this.

I didn't think the stopper is original as the other one is a little bigger and have the exact same stopper.

I am actually confused at bubble suffused, snowflake and camphor... I just received the Bob Stevens, will it clarify that? I originally thought this is snowflake or camphor, but the catalogues seems to describe the same thing differently. I like snowflake more though... sounds much more poetic. So, will update that.

It will be great as long as it is real. But, I did have to buy it with the 100 sons, 100 ladies in waiting and a small enamel on metal to guarantee the sale will go through. She can't quite recall which ones, but she mention that a pair of bottle is a gift from the Chinese government to her husband when he first went there.

Thanks,
David
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2014, 02:32:37 am »

David,
I had imposed to myself to no further comment about your buying, because you seems deaf, but I can't resit. I am literally shocked by your following sentence:
"I did have to buy it with the 100 sons, 100 ladies in waiting and a small enamel on metal to guarantee the sale will go through. She can't quite recall which ones, but she mention that a pair of bottle is a gift from the Chinese government to her husband when he first went there."
Literally shocked.
Kind regards
Giovanni


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David
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2014, 02:40:14 am »

Hi Giovanni,

All the things I am posting are past buying... I had not bought any except 2 to complete the test round since I joined this forum's public side.

So, I would not say I am deaf to what everyone is saying... I did not even join the public forum or start reading and learning...

If you take that into consideration, are you still literally shocked?

Best Regards,
David
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2014, 02:46:00 am »

Dear David,
sorry for that, please apologize. I understood that you bought them recently, after all the advice.
My fault.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2014, 02:57:59 am »

 Hi Giovanni,

Apology accepted... Whew... This is one time I am glad you misunderstood me, I was concluding that I do not belong here.

I wonder if this is why some of the people here, Steven and you are upset at me from time to time. I will need to include the wording in the trinket posts that these were bought before I joined in the future.

I have a lot of books to read, but perhaps only 3-5 more trinkets that are worthy of posting. So, I am limiting myself to 1 per week (this week is 2 post as I did said last week I will post the 100s bottle for Steven to see).

Or do you think it is better that I just stop posting and focus on reading?

Kind Regards,
David
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2014, 03:39:44 am »

Dear David,
it is good that you post, so you know what you have and others too knows what it is and to look at. But it will be better if you say that you bought it a while ago, just to avoid comments like my last one, which I believe you understand it was aiming to help you and not against you.
Giovanni
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2014, 03:47:44 am »

Hi Giovanni,

I understand where Steven and you are coming from, regarding my past purchases and past state of mind/decisions. I have 2 kids myself, and if I don't care, I won't bother to get upset at them. So, thank you for trying to help me.

I will add that comment for future trinket posting.

The Stevens book is really good, but I think I need to go to sleep now. Have a great day.

Warm Regards,
David
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2014, 08:46:22 am »

Dear David,
     You nailed the description almost perfectly, but in my opinion the bottle is 1980s onward, not late 19th/early 20th C. as Steven thinks. The red looks wrong, the carving looks wrong, and the shape looks wrong.
Except for those three issues, a great bottle!  Grin  Wink
Keep studying.
Incidentally, 'snowflake', 'camphor' and 'bubble-suffused' glass, is all the same. The first two are terms used by dealers and collectors, the latter a more scholarly term and  meant to sound more scientific.
Best to all,
  Shabbat Shalom,
     Joey
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2014, 12:18:03 pm »

Hi Joey,

 Grin  Thank you for looking at the pictures carefully and giving me your judgement, too bad it is another fake. No wonder I can't find it anywhere, and the dragon/phoenix looks different from the ones in the catalogue. My hope raised a bit after I saw a few photos of the Chi dragons in some of the catalogue...   Embarrassed

From the point of view of a fake 80's and onward bottle, how would you rank it's workmanship? Compared to other modern fakes?

Except for a couple of jade bottles (not my first one, other people's), I have never seen a real antique snuff bottle. So, if you compare this one's workmanship with the past, does it even come close to a mid level commoner's glass overlay bottles after ~1820s ? Or is a mid level commoner's glass overlay bottle from that timeframe still better than this one?

Thank you for clarifying the snowflake etc..., I was starting to get really confused and thought there is something I am missing from the photos. Hahaha! No wonder I choose the bubble suffused until Steven corrected me.

I will try to write something interesting on the next trinket photo post  Wink. Please correct me if I wrote anything wrong, I think it is a good way/practice to combine the different knowledges.

I think David's 1st Collection of Photo Enhanced and 80's Onwards Fakes is going to look pretty good for the layperson.  Grin Wonder how my 2nd collection will look like?

I am looking forward to the J & J book, it is in Kentucky right now.

Shabbat Shalom,
David
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2014, 12:42:36 pm »

Dear David,
nobody told you that this bottle is a fake. It is not a fake, it is just a modern bottle, made for the tourist market, made for low budget market, whatever. A fake is better made than your bottle, it is trying to fool uneducated eyes.
BTW you started this thread talking about one bottle but at the end showing two bottles, and we continue discussing one bottle. You have two bottles, havenít you?
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 12:43:16 am »

Hi Giovanni,

Thank you.

I finally see your point regarding honest bottle or honest farmer tools. I never thought of differentiating fake versus work of art in the style of snuff bottles. To me they were the same.

If you meant (in the past when we last discussed this), will I buy a fake with the intention to deceive? Then the answer to that question would have been "No, I will not buy a fake with the intention to deceive as I despise this kind of people.  But, I will buy a work of art in the style of snuff bottle and enjoy it as such and make it clear to all it is not a real antique."

Will I choose a honest farmer tool or a fake bottle with the intention to deceive? Then I will choose the farmer tool, even if I don't collect it, because I don't like fakes with intention to deceive.

Will I choose a honest farmer tool or a work of art in the style of a commoner snuff bottle? Then I will choose the work of art, because I don't collect farmer tools.

Now that I see where you were coming from...  Cheesy  I got worked up for no reason... Sorry about that outburst (but I was also a little stressed out by the forum then).


Do you mean that during the 80's these kind of bottles were officially sold as modern tourist bottle? Is that why the cavity inside the bottle looks rough? (I don't have the neat tool you used (antique endoscope?) to look inside bottles, so can only use a 10x loupe to try to see some areas close to the opening)

Shouldn't a snuff bottle be counted as a snuff bottle if and only if it is made for the intention of using it for snuff? Or if relaxing the standard, then all bottles made before 1912 (around the time when snuffing fell out of favor or end of Qing Dynasty as a nice cut off point)?

I can accept older tourist bottles (around pre 1912) or internal painted from the old masters/artist from Qing Dynasty as snuff bottle. But, I have difficulty accepting bottles made not for snuffing and/or after snuffing fell out of favor as snuff bottles...

I can see them as work of art in the style of snuff bottle, but don't quite see how they can be counted as snuff bottles? Do people collect them as snuff bottle or as work of art in the style of snuff bottle?


Yes I do have another tourist "bottle" that is supposedly a pair with this one. I still haven't figure out whether it is a female chi dragon or a baby chi dragon based on the definition from Richard Li on Chinese Snuff Bottle Rebus  bottle no. 65. If I can figure out it is a baby chi dragon, then I can complete the story in one way. If I figure out it is a female chi dragon, then I can complete the story in another way.

It is also the last trinket I plan on posting, so please wait while I research the other trinkets and post them first.

 Wink Saving the best (in my opinion) for last is a good virtue I strive for.

Warm Regards,
David
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 01:27:20 am »

Dear David,
you are posing a good question, to which I do not have an answer because I too often have the same question myself. Why some collect that type of bottles? I donít know. I do collect bottles made for use except some special ones which clearly are objects of art (your one it isnít in my opinion. Or better, to my understanding). A bottle like your one is, to my mentality, a non sense because nobody will use it today, and it is not art in the sense I understand it. To me is a souvenir object, a class of objects in general that I never buy. I donít buy a model of the tower of Pisa or a model of the Qingming festival paint because such things will inevitably end forgotten in some drawer.
A completely different story is the category of inside painted bottles, which can be a piece of art. I said ďcan beĒ because not all them are.
All this is of course my personal point of view.
About the second bottle, I am referring to the second one you did post here. In your first post, we see images of a dragon bottle and a phoenix bottle. Now you talk about a qilong bottle. Do you have three?
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2014, 02:03:19 am »

Hi Giovanni,

All these photos are from one bottle. The phoenix and dragon are on the same bottle, which is why I was so impressed with it being carved and polished on something so tiny.

The Chi dragon is on the 2nd bottle, which I would like to post last. The seller told me that the smaller dragon/phoenix bottle and the slightly larger Chi dragon with longevity character bottle are a pair. So, I am trying to come up with a story that will make them a pair, although they look different.

Please don't take my stories or description too seriously. It is a mental/research exercise to find and pull specific to the trinket information from different sources, understand and absorb them, combine them in my head, and put them out again in my own words for a specific trinket (but I am trying to copy the word/tone style of how some of the auction catalogue writer says them).

I recall seeing that on the important level catalogues, that when they have a pair that looks different (or a left/right side), they usually assign it the same lot number to sell as a pair. They will also have 2 separate descriptions, and within it stressing that it is a pair incase the reader did not notice the same lot number of different looking bottles. The bidders will then know that they are pricing/bidding for a pair of bottles and not a single bottle, otherwise the seller and house might end with a lower sale price.

 Grin Trying to follow them as close as I can, as I think that will allow me to read/understand the nuances of auction description better (especially since they are quite short/curt for the "unimportant" bottles that I will start out on).

It is also meant to be a little entertainment for Joey, and others that share my sense of humor.

Kind Regards,
David
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2014, 07:21:42 am »

Dear David,
     I was thinking that you could actually be a certain dealer in disguise, jerking us around by presenting yourself as a newbie collector of Chinese origin, since your BS-style of cataloguing this bottle was THAT good!  Grin
     I have got quite a lot of laughs from this description, and from comments and  questions you've posted, so thank you for that. And by all means, please continue in good health.
Shabbat Shalom,
    Joey
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2014, 10:25:46 pm »

Hi Joey,

You are way too sharp, it's scary!  Grin

I tried to take on his tone, after reading his descriptions of some bottle.

I am glad you enjoyed it fully!

Warmest Regards,
David
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2014, 06:53:34 am »

Dear David,
   This weekend especially, I needed a few good laughs. Your stuff was a 'godsend', literally.
Thank you,
Joey


Hi Joey,

You are way too sharp, it's scary!  Grin

I tried to take on the tone of Hugh Moss, after reading his descriptions of some bottle.

I am glad you enjoyed it fully!

Warmest Regards,
David
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David
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2014, 12:28:41 pm »

Hi Joey,

You're too kind, I am glad it helped and wish that everything will be better.

I will try to make the other posting similar to this then. I was going to make a cold hard scientific sounding one for the next, but I think I actually had way more fun trying to copy him.  Grin

Warm/sympathetic you're welcome,
David
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David

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