About This Forum

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Charll shared this beautiful Xianfeng (1851-1861) dated bottle depicting NeZha combating the Dragon King amongst a rolling sea of blue and eight mythical sea creatures.


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
March 28, 2024, 03:41:09 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Contact Login Register  

Painted or Photo Lithographed?

Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Painted or Photo Lithographed?  (Read 533 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« on: November 20, 2014, 02:55:17 am »

Please note if you see the following notes on my posting. It means that those were purchased prior to joining this forum and starting to learn about this area. I will take one person's advice and only post (after 12/1/2014) those that I think are tourist/student bottle.

Please note: These were purchased prior to my joining this forum. All were bought prior to me taking a more serious view of learning about this area. So, please give constructive comments regarding, why this is a tourist/student bottle (if it is), and within this category, is it a good piece or not.

Hi Steven and George.

Here are the 3 possible photo lithographed bottles, that should be brought back from china in the 80s if I can believe the seller.

Please take a look and let me know if these are really just worth 10 dollars. And if they are please let me know where I can buy the 100s ones, I was not kidding that I really would like to have the 100 scholar, warrior, beasts, dragon, and princesses that she mentioned that she gave away. As I believe each of them have a joke or something. So, will like them as cheap fun pieces to play with my friend or kids.

The first one is the 100 kid joke bottle, it is 9.5cm tall and about 13 cm wide. If the date is real then is Jia Zi, 1984? It wrote 100 sons picture, red seal mark, but not name.

The 2nd one is 100 serving ladies, it is 7.5 cm tall and about 9 cm wide. It only wrote Serving Ladies Picture, old art new made.

The 3rd one is just a Play Kids picture bottle, no mention of 100 sons. It is 13 cm tall and 7.5 cm wide. No writing or mark. I bought this one to thank her for sending me a signed letter of her story on when/where her husband got them.

And for good measure, I put in a 4th landscape. It is a little over 8 cm tall and 6 cm wide. Please let me know if this is also photo lithographed or painted.

Thanks,
David


* IMG_1886.jpg (129.01 KB, 1013x860 - viewed 24 times.)

* IMG_1887.jpg (45.05 KB, 362x833 - viewed 13 times.)

* IMG_1888.jpg (35.43 KB, 329x641 - viewed 11 times.)

* IMG_1891.jpg (75.27 KB, 695x707 - viewed 23 times.)

* IMG_1892.jpg (39.13 KB, 334x744 - viewed 10 times.)

* IMG_1889.jpg (105.64 KB, 593x1077 - viewed 17 times.)

* IMG_1890.jpg (57.21 KB, 365x1103 - viewed 13 times.)

* IMG_1893.jpg (69.65 KB, 490x716 - viewed 29 times.)

* IMG_1894.jpg (30.46 KB, 262x728 - viewed 14 times.)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 12:32:19 pm by David » Report Spam   Logged

David

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2014, 02:58:30 am »

Forgot to mention, all the tops have cork and spoons or spoon hole.
Report Spam   Logged

David

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 11350


Test


WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2014, 03:51:37 am »

Both had all the black ( dark outlines ) chemically enhanced, then all the other colors were brushed in.. Like a coloring book..

I say chemical instead of photo applied, because the process can be done with chemicals and special lights.. Leaving a clean surface to apply the rest of coloring. Which is how I believe it is done..
Report Spam   Logged

"Experience Each Experience To The Fullest To Obtain The Most Growth"

Snuff Bottle Journal
Peter Bentley 彭达理
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2600



« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2014, 04:42:37 am »

Hi  David

As  far  as   I  know,  the  photo -lithographic   fakes   only  started     about   10  years   ago -   because  the   technique   is  obviously  very   sophisticated   and  highly   technical

It's    virtually  impossible  to   spot a    fake   from  an  average  e-bay  posted   pic

My  advice  is    that  "if  in   doubt   DON'T  buy"

Any  real  original  bottle   with  provenance   is  now   worth   in the   US$  2  -  5 K  range  (if  not  more)

If  you  buy    stuff  on ebay   it's      really  "caveat  emptor"

Cheers

Peter
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11282


« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2014, 07:26:17 am »

Dear Peter,
   You may have missed David's explanation that he wants cheap examples to play with and share with his kids, NOT for serious collecting.  David knows these are not handpainted art objects. He wants to know their value as cheap trinkets.
   He has not yet decided if he wants to collect snuff bottles seriously.
   Best,
     Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2014, 12:01:28 pm »

Hi Joey,

Thank you for understanding my point of view, and explaining it.  Cheesy

I am actually pretty certain (75-85%) that I want to give snuff bottle collecting another much more educated and serious try. I believe I still have 4 initial tests left, so I am considering combining all of them into another trial run before finalizing on snuff bottle collecting. But, I still want to research and present all my trinkets and read all the books first before trying again.

I enjoy the discussions and things that I had learnt from Steven, George, Tom, Giovanni, and you.

Warmest Regards,
David
Report Spam   Logged

David

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2014, 12:07:11 pm »

Hi Peter,

Thank you, that is one lesson (not to believe online pictures... I don't buy from auction or ebay yet...) I learned pretty well by now  Cheesy.

I was lamenting the fact on earlier post (while you were busy) that I did not read the photo film applied bottle and chemical + light bottle threads until I already used up most of my test budget for this area.

As I do have a very small budget, any bottles above 200 is off limits.

Regards,
David
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 01:25:26 pm by David » Report Spam   Logged

David

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2014, 12:21:58 pm »

Hi George,

I think I just realized something... regarding wording.

Photo lithography is not the same as sticking a picture film on the inside of the bottles. I read both sets of threads:
  1) The ones where a picture film stuck bottle was dissected.
  2) The ones where chemical inside the bottle with light shooting through an image on the outside of bottle, creates the black outline on the inside of the bottle for the delicate features. Then a worker or student or painter fill it out and paint the surrounding.

1) is the sophisticated one that the forum dissected and pulled a film off. That kind I do not have any.

2) is what I had been calling photo lithography. You can look it up on wiki, it is a process that we use to create designs on silicon to make the IC chips in most electronics. It is evolved from old fashion photography. (I think a guest photographer explained that some where, so I ass-me that the forum would know the word.)

Sorry, I guess I mislead the forum into thinking my bottles are of type 1), which can be mass produced and are worth 2-10 dollars new.

Please let me update the topic and ask,

What is the value of these 4 bottles (if there are any)? And is it reasonable for me to buy the other 100s bottle with a joke for 50 or less?

Thanks,
David


Report Spam   Logged

David

Steven
Global Moderator / Forum Detective
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4101



« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2014, 02:10:00 pm »

Hi David,

There are 2 different photo lithographed bottles, one is pure photo lithographed bottle, which is no painting involved. another one is only the outline was photo lithographed , the colors was applied by hands. normally the second one is not easy to be inspected by the new collector, also more tricky. as far as  how those bottles were made, which is not that important if you don't want to make it yourself. the most important part is how would you inspect it.

I didn't pay much attention on the bottles you posted at the first place, since I never gave them any attention. But in order to help you to understand it more, I inspected them carefully again.

Your bottles are not the first type photo lithographed, but the second type which we called photo enhanced, the outline was printed, but filled the colors by hands. and also only the first two bottles were photo enhanced, the last two were fully painted, but with tourist bottles lever.

You can inspect your bottles carefully with magnifier if the outer edge of the painting is blurry, in most case, those bottles are photo enhanced.

 look the first bottle , the stairs of the building is very straight, and firm,which compared with the badly colors filled skill, we can tell the painter's skill is not able to drawing a perfect straight line like that, as we know, such a straight line is very difficult to be drawn inside the curved bottle, anyway, that is only one of the clues.look the third bottle, which is also a kid bottle, the line is not so straight, but very naturally drawn. but only with bad skills.

I am little confused, if you are still gonna buy those lower end tourist or photo enhanced bottles, why you spent all those money for the books? if we try to be more serious on the snuff bottle collections, then forget about those photo enhanced bottles, I won't pay a penny for it, not mention $50.00, with a couple of $50.00s I can buy a decent real stuff..

Steven

« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 03:02:13 pm by Steven » Report Spam   Logged

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2014, 11:02:36 pm »

Hi Steven,

Thank you for taking the time to explain the 2 different kinds of photo lithographed bottles. I will remember the name photo enhanced.

It is great that you took the time to look and tell me the last 2 bottles are fully painted tourist. As I was confused whether they are photo enhanced touched up or painted badly with a dry brush. I will be able to look through the others that I know is not photo enhanced, to weed out the tourist level inside painted.

I don't plan on collecting more photo enhanced fake snuff bottles (or any more fakes or tourist level), all the books I am reading will help me in collecting real snuff bottles later on. I have not rush, and will not mind to wait 1/2 year or longer before I buy again.

I do plan on buying more vintage photo enhanced fake snuff bottles with a joke in it (ideally in the 25-50 range or lower), as a toy to play with my kids or as a conversation piece to fool around with my friend. To see them laugh 5x is worth more than 250 dollars or a commoner bottle to me.


If I feel I have enough knowledge to do another round of purchase, I will split my next round of budget as follows:

75% serious collecting bottle (1~3 only)
20% cheap trinkets or possible bottles, each under 50
5% toy bottles to play with my kids or enjoy with my friend, remember this is also my amusement budget...

The reason I want to keep the trinkets section, is because I believe that will help me wait for the best serious bottle in my budget. I don't plan to collect on quantity, if I collect anything it will be on quality. I am willing to wait for up to a year to buy a single good high end bottle at a good price.

Also, there is a chance I might find a sleeper bottle (using the words of Perry) while amusing myself by looking for trinkets, if I continue to buildup my knowledge and my "eye".

I don't judge the success of a test purchase round by a single item, I judge it by the complete set of items and how much fun I derive from it.

Thank you for caring enough to spend so much time on me, I really appreciate it. Please be patient and bear with me, while I present my trinkets and accumulate more knowledge.

Warm and Sincere Regards,
David
Report Spam   Logged

David

Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11282


« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2014, 09:12:14 am »

Dear David,
    Once people understand where you are at, as a budding collector, and student, I think the negative comments will disappear.
    For many of us,  if we don't realise you bought this stuff BEFORE you started studying, then when we invest time and energy to help educate, and then see stuff posted that anyone seriously paying attention would not touch, it is frustrating.
   Now that all hopefully understand that this is your collection from BEFORE your study started, people will chill.
best,
 Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 04:22:28 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

YT
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 1622



« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2014, 09:50:39 am »

Dear David,

For me as I'm still very much a beginner, I have been reading all your post and the responses.
I learnt a lot and also discover that I take 10 times more time than you to finish Lilla Perry's book(lazy).

Personally I feel Giovanni and Steven really put their heart to help you. Their comments are hard cold truth and certainly take a long and detailed time to look carefully at your bottles and set their comments.

Look positively at the replies and you will catch up very soon.

Cheers,
YT
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 11282


« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2014, 09:57:31 am »

Dear David,
    As well, in addition to YT's comments, you, like YT himself and Steven, are ahead of me, Giovanni, and most of the Western collectors, since you can read the Chinese and we can't.  I learned to read a bit, and have memorised Imperial reign names and seal marks, but there is no comparison with someone who is a literate native speaker/reader/writer.
   Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Steven
Global Moderator / Forum Detective
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4101



« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2014, 10:28:45 am »

Hi David,

I never felt upset at you, I see you as myself 4 years ago when I first pump into the snuff bottle collections. I was also with enough enthusiasm but very low pocket.  I didn't take the advice well at beginning, but back on the track a little later, Thanks all the veteran collectors Tom, Pat,Peter and ofcoz the teacher Joey!  without them, I might be still where I was. Also we have to thank George gave us such a wonderful platform to communicate with each other.

As YT said, my comments might be cold and hard, And I wish you don't take it as offense,  you will know its all good for you when you go back the post 4 year later.

Yes, as Joey said, you do have advantage to pick it up very quickly since you know chinese, and should have more sense about the chinese arts.  take the advantage of it, and like I said at first day we chat, I bet you will be a asset of the Forum in the future if you keep studying.

Best!

Steven
Report Spam   Logged

David
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 783


« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2014, 12:43:54 pm »

Hi YT, Steven, and Joey,

Thank you for your kind word of encouragements, I hope to learn more and not disappoint.

Hi YT,

And I can feel there intentions as it shows, it is the only reason I did not ask George to delete all my post and close my account.

Hi Steven,

Except for my Grandpa's formal area that I sneak in once a year while I was young, I never looked at Chinese Art carefully. They are just around as decorations and I hated them when I was kid, because I can't run around, practice my stuff or fool around with my friends then.

It is only after looking at the trinkets that I thought were snuff bottles or jade pendants, roaming around the net and then joining the forum and reading some book that I look at them differently.

Also, my branch of the family don't emphasis arts for sons (it is actually strongly discouraged), we were expected to become doctor/lawyer/engineer and have the abilities to handle ourselves and protect people important to us in most situations.

I have a good logic and flexible thought processes, so I can understand, visualize, pick up and combine things very quickly. But, in this area I am only "skin deep" for now.

Kind Regards,
David
Report Spam   Logged

David

Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal