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100 Years of Concentric Rings

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Question: 8P2Fi
zvwCBHBwyTkdbnbXgNe - 0 (0%)
NGWXnIorQtCL - 0 (0%)
zPNVApFyAklkWzJPDbQ - 0 (0%)
rliVnMcgBREbnjyWZT - 0 (0%)
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Author Topic: 100 Years of Concentric Rings  (Read 1161 times)
rpfstoneman
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« on: November 17, 2014, 11:18:02 pm »

All,

With all the conversation lately on concentric ring bottles I am placing these here for comparison.  I believe, as told by Robert Kleiner when purchasing a couple of these dragon pillar bottles, this line spans 100 years or more; as early as 1780 to as late as 1920.  All are all potted bottles crafted on a wheel.

The photos could be better, but it is my hope that they are sufficient to illustrate the point. Base photos are in order from what I believe is early 1800's, mid 1800's, and late 1800's-early 1900. Base center becomes less depressed to more flat as they move from early to late (left to right).

Charll


* 100 Years of Concentric Rings.jpg (201.62 KB, 666x500 - viewed 109 times.)

* 100 Years of Concentric Ring Bases.jpg (182.18 KB, 666x500 - viewed 410 times.)

* s.jpg (227.94 KB, 666x500 - viewed 66 times.)

* s.jpg (219.75 KB, 666x500 - viewed 88 times.)

* s.jpg (193.99 KB, 666x500 - viewed 74 times.)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 11:25:13 pm by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

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richy88
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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2014, 11:25:00 pm »

Nice collection, Charll!
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Richard from sunny Singapore
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George
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« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2014, 11:32:25 pm »

Nice comparisons Charll...  You can certainly see the progression !  I don't think we would ever have seen a pic like this anyplace for such a nice comparison..

Really a pretty exceptional picture, and thank you !
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 11:47:47 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

Steven
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« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2014, 12:39:57 am »

Thanks Charll for putting all together for us, Yes ,I agree with George, we definitely  can't find this comparison on other place.

Also Great collection! I just wish that I can have such nice dragon bottle collection one day.Smiley

Steven
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Wattana
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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2014, 12:43:35 am »

Charll,

Thanks for this post. A most interesting comparison!

But I have one question - how on earth can anyone confidently place them in precise chronological order? Once a 'style variation' arrived, it does not necessarily mean that all earlier variants were discarded. It merely adds a new variant to the menu.

Tom
(PS: I am assuming the order has been arranged by Robert Kleiner)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 02:13:47 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
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« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2014, 01:43:32 am »

Hi Charll,

That is so neat, I was actually wondering about that if you can line them up chronologically what will they look like. It's very cool that you have enough to make such a line and show us. Thank you.

Do all these bottle have the inside swirl marks that climbs up the inside wall? Including the last 2 with red color and the white one? Their base looks kind of flat for some reason... did they glazed the bottom of the two red ones?

I did notice a pattern for the blue ones, it starts with 8 circles and then go to 12/13 circles as we get more modern (last blue one is a bit bigger, but 2nd to last of the blue is similar to other). Is that also a way to date porcelain... because the material of the mud is better and can be made thinner? 

Best Regards,
David
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« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2014, 03:27:22 am »

Charll,

Thank you very much for the very informative photo arrangement in your latest post ! They are very educational. As some of the early porcelain bottles were converted from Ming medicinal bottles, it will be nice to see some of the bases of Ming medicial bottles which were later used for snuff powder.

Inn Bok
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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2014, 03:47:53 am »

Dear Charll,
thank you for this interesting, nice display.
Dear David, the number of circles has nothing to do with the quality of paste. On the contrary, the fineness of paste of Kangxi ware is much higher than of late 19th century.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2014, 04:48:42 am »

Dear Charll

Even before I read your article in detail.... You deserve a SALUTE...!!!!

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2014, 10:28:01 am »

Charll thanks so much for sharing this.  Now I will take the few I have out of my cabinet and compare the base with those you have shared.  This is so interesting.  Have you seen a blue bead in the center of the concentric rings before?  I have a dragon pillar bottle I purchased in 2012 from Kleiner that has this.  It has been interesting to me as I have not seen one with this before.  Just wondering if anyone else has seen this before?   
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2014, 10:33:02 am »

Charll

Thank you for this very eye opening and educational  post.
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Best Regards

Pat
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« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2014, 01:28:48 pm »

Dear Charll,
    WONDERFUL POST and WONDERFUL PHOTOS!
    I never thought to line up my bottles with ring bases, in chronological order. And now I have to wait till May 2015 to do it! I almost want to go to Ireland now for a few days and do it!
Best,
   Joey
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« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2014, 02:21:29 pm »

Hi Giovanni,

Thank you for teaching me that.

I know this is a bad comparison... but comparing dough to porcelain mud is the only thing I can call on right now.

For dough, depending on the type of flour, temperature of water, yeast or no yeast, salt or no salt, how long you knead, and how long you let it sleep before using. The Grandmas can make it best for making a certain food.

Like dumpling skin needs a differently prepared dough compared to noodles. And a kind of white round bun bread needs a differently prepared dough compared to all the other. Each type of dough is best for it's purpose.

Like the dough for noodle is very stretchy and chewy after cooked, while the dough for dumpling skin is firm and stays together while cooked in water, and the dough for the bun will become fluffy, moist and firm. They are best for a certain purpose.

I assumed the mud is similar. So, was thinking if thinner coils means they can make thinner porcelain as we get more modern... but the books on porcelain is most likely still in the warehouse. So, might need to ask these kind of odd questions for a while more.


So, not trying to be difficult here (one engineer to another), but usually when someone mention best or better. We tend to ask best for what or better relative to what?

 Cheesy But, don't have to answer my ramblings for now. After I read some more, I might bring this back up.

Warmest Regards,
David
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« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2014, 05:44:38 pm »

Dear Tom,
    Let's move your question from 'style of snuff bottles' to 'style of men's trousers'.
In the Forties, there was the 'zoot suit' with big floppy trouser legs. It was looser, a reaction to the tight military cut which was designed for ease of movement. Then there were Levis jeans in the 1950s and early 1960s; and bellbottoms in the mid-1960s and  1970s.
    You could say that the trousers from a zoot suit could be made any time after they were invented; but would they be? Who would buy trousers that didn't suit the accepted style of the time?
    Now, let's go back to snuff bottles. If people liked a certain style of dragon as part of the popular culture, a craftsman, unless specially commissioned, would not make something which didn't please his clients. And people tend to be slaves to fashion.
Best,
 Joey



Charll,

Thanks for this post. A most interesting comparison!

But I have one question - how on earth can anyone confidently place them in precise chronological order? Once a 'style variation' arrived, it does not necessarily mean that all earlier variants were discarded. It merely adds a new variant to the menu.

Tom
(PS: I am assuming the order has been arranged by Robert Kleiner)
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

rpfstoneman
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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2014, 07:24:27 pm »

Quote
But I have one question - how on earth can anyone confidently place them in precise chronological order?
 

Tom, I did not say anything about chronological precision. Cheesy  All I know for sure (as expressed by Joe's trouser example) is that the ends and a number of bottles in the middle are correct, and that the span is more than 100 years.  The middle alignment is my best educated guess as based on bottle characteristics and provided 'date range' when given upon purchase.  Three of the bottles were bought from respected dealers, a few from reputable auction houses with documented provenance that had estimated dates, and the remaining were purchase here and there which I simply tried to fit into appropriate order on the timeline.  This is more of an exercise in contrast over time than chronological precision.  Though I did debate (more liked asked a lot of questions) of Robert Kleiner and Hugh Moss, and have read everything I could put my hands on with regard to dating these types of bottles.  Also note my dating is gross in scale (early, mid, and late).  There is a bottle or two which may need to be switched upon further examination, but I think I'm pretty close on the gross groupings. 

Anyway, the point is one of the opportunity to compare and contrast when you can get this many, or more, bottles together of similar design.

Charll
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 09:21:45 pm by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2014, 07:51:34 pm »

Have you seen a blue bead in the center of the concentric rings before?  I have a dragon pillar bottle I purchased in 2012 from Kleiner that has this.  It has been interesting to me as I have not seen one with this before.  Just wondering if anyone else has seen this before?   

Jo, no I have not seen one with a blue dot in the center of the base, and I do not recall seeing any pictures of this in any book or articles I've seen either.  An interesting point, when we first met in West Pam Beach in 2011 the dragon pillar bottle with ground lip I had with me at the convention.  This was the only such bottle I had at the time.  I recall being fascinated by these concentric ring based bottles and was looking to lean more.

Charll   
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« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2014, 08:22:26 pm »

Charll,
     Thanks for clarifying that point for me. I had assumed the order was a 'firm statement of chronology', but now that you have explained, I understand where you are coming from. Thanks again for posting these pictures. I think it is the first time I have seen a line of bases being compared in this way.

Dear Joey,
     Clothing styles was EXACTLY what I was thinking of when I asked Charll the question. And your analogy to mens' trousers shows precisely the problem. Imagine a researcher 500 years from now, with no written records to refer to, trying to place in their correct chronological order a jumbled collection of 500-year old pairs of trousers. He/she may correctly assign baggy-legged with turn-ups to the late 1940s, blue jeans to the 1950s, tight 'drain-pipes' to the early 1960s, and bell-bottoms from mid-1960s and 1970s. So when he sees another pair of faded and worn-out blue jeans made in 2014 he naturally (and mistakenly) assigns them to the 1950s, because that is where they logically fit into the order of things.
     But as we all know, fashion has no logic. It often goes in circles, has quirky off-shoots, or takes time to travel from one region to another. Look, for example, at the Eastern Europeans before the iron curtain was lifted. The clothes they wore mimicked the West, but lagged by 10-15 years.
     China during the Qing dynasty was a vast empire. Many of the more isolated regions would not have picked up on the latest fads (clothing and snuff bottles alike) in Beijing until years later. 

Tom
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« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2014, 02:50:43 am »

Dear Tom,
    I see your point. Good we do this as a hobby, and not for a living.  Grin   Wink
Best,
  Joey

Dear Charll,

    Would you believe I was just checking flights to see if I could swing by Ireland on my way to my nephew's wedding in mid-January (Mid-January! In Toronto! I feel cold just thinking of it! And I HATE cold!) so I could do a similar comparison to yours, with my bottles which have a similar base?
    Your idea was genius!

    I went through my catalogue, and only found 5 bottles where that base is described (#3, 4, 6, 9, 17), but possibly #16 and others also have this distinctive base, and Robert forgot to mention it. 
    For some reason I only associated it with the dragon pillar bottles, but when you asked me to look at a bottle from the Ault collection in the Wooley & Wallis Auction house in Salisbury, which was to be sold there the week after my visit (sale was 12/13.Nov.), it had the same unglazed base with concentric circles, but a human figure subject, not dragons.
   
Best,
 Joey
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« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2014, 03:02:49 am »


 Good we do this as a hobby, and not for a living.  Grin   Wink


Dear Joey, I couldn't agree more....!

Tom
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« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2014, 10:39:36 am »

Hi Joey and Tom,

There is one up for sale on Sotheby's. Lot 86 from Bloch Collection 9. It's tiny 1 3/4, and has some dating info.

David
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