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Can anyone ID this label?

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Author Topic: Can anyone ID this label?  (Read 283 times)
Wattana
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« on: November 13, 2014, 11:11:30 pm »

Hi All,

This label was stuck on the base of a bottle I recently acquired from an Eldreds auction. It looks like either a dealer's or a collector's label. Not sure if it is stylized seal script, or some kind of Western logo.

Has anyone seen one like it before? I'm trying to trace its origin.

Thanks,

Tom


* SB167 label.jpg (36.72 KB, 400x300 - viewed 16 times.)
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Steven
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 11:35:52 pm »

Hi Tom,

When I handled it, I did try to figure out, but I can't.

It looks like chinese seal script character"葛仁" or "仁葛" I don't know if it should be read from left or right. And when I did google search, nothing came out which related with collections.

That is all I know, help someone else can help out.

Steven
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David
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2014, 01:52:26 am »

Hi Tom and Steven,

I don't read seal script, but based on what Steven wrote. I did find out that Sir Alexander Grantham have a chinese name that begins with 葛.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Grantham

Since he was in HK for 1947-57 as Governor... perhaps he collected some chinese antique?

Just a while guess, as I can't find other things.

Unless that bottle is a medicine bottle?

David
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2014, 03:05:44 am »

Hi Tom, I saw that lable on another snuff bottle before. 

Cheers,

Curt

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Wattana
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2014, 03:24:58 am »

Hi Guys, thanks for your feedback!

Steven,
    Many thanks for trying to figure it out. Google translate just reads it as "ge ren", or "ren ge"; the 'ren' in this case not meaning 'person'.

David,
    That is an intriguing possibility! While the chances of it being an ex-governor of Hong Kong's personal label are probably low, this may be a stab in the right direction. It did strike me that it could be the logo of a Western collector or dealer who is playing around with a motif based loosely on a Chinese seal.

Curt,
    Can you recall where / when you might have seen this label before? (for example, at an auction, someone's private collection?)

Tom

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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2014, 08:30:45 am »

Hi Tom,

I would doubt it being a western collector or dealer's logo,  it might have some connection with Japanese. 葛仁could be a Japanese name as well, it reads"Katsutoyo" .

And we know Japanese like the seal script, so overall I would think it has better chance the label connected with Japanese collector or dealer.

Just my 2 cents.

Steven
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2014, 11:31:49 am »

Hi Steven,

I just put the Kanji (if Japanese) character to google's Japanese to english and it came out as Kuzu Jin.

The Katsu Toyo is 勝豐, is there some Japanese person you know named Katsutoyo and has Kanji as 葛仁?

The first mark looks a little like 葛, could the 2nd mark be a kind of symbol or form for 香港總督/港督? Or if he have a family crest or coat of arms?

My 2 bronze cents,
David
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2014, 02:28:45 pm »

I thought 'katsu' was Japanese for a deep-fried breaded cutlet (like tonkatsu, or breaded pork cutlet).  Cheesy
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2014, 06:49:55 am »

Hi Steven and David,
    This is getting more and more intriguing! Interestingly, when I first saw the label, it crossed my mind that it looked vaguely Japanese, or even Korean.

Dear Joey,
    Ha...ha.... very good. But should you be even thinking of pork cutlets, especially today?

Tom
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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2014, 09:36:54 am »

Dear Tom,

    I've never had a pork cutlet, but seeing the word 'katsu' reminded me of a very funny incident in the late 1980s, involving a very stupid, snobbish dealer in Japanese antiques, mainly netsuke and related wares, based in Bloomington Hills, MI.
   She'd put an advert into 'Arts of Asia' or 'Orientations', showing a group of very fine 'tonkotsu' or Japanese tobacco pouches, which would have hung from netsuke.

   The advert inscription stated, " A very fine group of rare 'tonkatsu', recently acquired by this gallery. Only serious collectors need apply to receive further information."
    We started faxing the stupid woman messages, like mine: "As a Jew, I'm offended by your pushing pork cutlets on us! You should be ashamed of yourself!"
    Louis Lawrence wrote her: "I'm having a dinner party for eight, but that includes Joey Silver, who doesn't eat pork. You only illustrate 5 'tonkatsu'; any chance of us getting 7 of them, and a chicken katsu for Joey?"
    The late Denis Szeszler wrote asking if there was something special in the 'tonkatsu' spice mixture, that made them so rare. Otherwise, he could get perfectly good 'tonkatsu' at Zabar's, in NYC, and didn't need to order from Bloomington Hills.

    She received over a dozen such messages, and didn't put such a snobbish ad in again...  Cheesy
We felt our work there was done.
Joey
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2014, 05:51:56 am »

Another great story dear Joey. Thanks for sharing!

Tom
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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2014, 08:18:25 am »

Dear Tom,
    Thank you. I thought I'd already told this story, but I guess not.
Best,
  Joey


Another great story dear Joey. Thanks for sharing!

Tom
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2014, 02:07:57 pm »

Hi Joey,

That's funny  Cheesy.

The Jewish people don't eat pork? I hope this don't sound too stupid... why?


Hi Tom,

Thanks for the suggestion, I started to look for impotent bottle catalogue and found a few under 30 so I purchased them. It will be kind of scattered, but I think enough for my current purpose.

There is a photo of a blue/white bowl on page 223 of Hidden Meaning in Chinese Art, by Batholomew.  The character for 10,000 (on your left when looking at the picture), looks kind of like the character you posted. It is not exactly the same, but since there are many many ways to write a chinese character, could that be another possibility?

David
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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2014, 05:03:28 pm »

Dear David,
    I was once told that there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers. When I was told this, I asked, "What if a person were in a burning house and able to escape easily, and he asked another person if they should escape or wait for the firemen to help them?" The teacher agreed that this would be a stupid question, but more likely, a stupid person, and it might be better if he didn't pass on his 'stupidity' gene!

    Anyway, the Christian Bible, with which you may be familiar, is comprised of two collections of books: The Old Testament and The New Testament.

    The proper name of the first collection is The Hebrew Bible.  It is the Bible given by G-D to the People of Israel, also called the Jewish People (Yutai-ren, in Pinyin).

    In the third book of the Hebrew Bible, called 'Leviticus' in Latin and in English (called 'VaYikra' in Hebrew), there are dietary laws Given By G-D to His People Israel. Amongst the many prohibitions are eating pork products or shellfish.

   We are permitted to eat mammals with two conditions: they must chew their cud (ie, have two stomachs), and have cloven hooves.  A pig has cloven hooves, but doesn't chew it's cud. So it is forbidden. Why, is a bit complicated. The simple answer is that it is because G-D Commanded us.

   From the water, we may eat any animal which has scales and fins while alive. Thus, fish such as trout or salmon or seabass is fine, but not shellfish or eels, etc.

   Hope this helps. We've been discussing it for almost 3,500 years, so I can expand on it if you'd like...
Best,
 Joey
   


Hi Joey,

That's funny  Cheesy.

The Jewish people don't eat pork? I hope this don't sound too stupid... why?


Hi Tom,

Thanks for the suggestion, I started to look for impotent bottle catalogue and found a few under 30 so I purchased them. It will be kind of scattered, but I think enough for my current purpose.

There is a photo of a blue/white bowl on page 223 of Hidden Meaning in Chinese Art, by Batholomew.  The character for 10,000 (on your left when looking at the picture), looks kind of like the character you posted. It is not exactly the same, but since there are many many ways to write a chinese character, could that be another possibility?

David
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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2014, 10:24:40 pm »

Hi Joey,

That is a good one too, I can see you driving your teachers nuts when younger too  Grin

That is interesting, fish without scales tend to have higher heavy metal and shellfish will occasionally be toxic even during safe season. Both are also more prone to parasites, compared to those with scales.

Does crustacean like shrimp, crabs, and lobster also count as shell fish?

Thanks,
David
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« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2014, 02:48:19 am »

Dear David,
    Yup, I was a 'hevre-man' (a polite way of saying a 'smart-a--' in Yiddish).  Wink
    We just say that if it DOES NOT have scales and fins while alive, it is not allowed for our consumption.
Judaism, unlike Islam etc., does NOT tell others what to do. Our rules are for ourselves. Others are welcome to learn from us, but not obligated.
    So crustaceans and sea cucumbers and all other animals in the waters (fresh and salty) are not allowed and come under the rubric 'shellfish', whether they have shells or not.
Best,
  Joey



Hi Joey,

That is a good one too, I can see you driving your teachers nuts when younger too  Grin

That is interesting, fish without scales tend to have higher heavy metal and shellfish will occasionally be toxic even during safe season. Both are also more prone to parasites, compared to those with scales.

Does crustacean like shrimp, crabs, and lobster also count as shell fish?

Thanks,
David
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2014, 11:28:01 am »

Hi Joey,

 Grin Me too, I always have to ask or think of a why otherwise I have problem accepting it.

Thanks for explaining that.

David
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