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For Your Comment.... A famille rose bottle, Battle of Zhang Ge Er

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Author Topic: For Your Comment.... A famille rose bottle, Battle of Zhang Ge Er  (Read 2024 times)
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David
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« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2014, 02:34:44 am »

 Cheesy  Thank you Joey, I will read a little more now, and a lot more in the future.

Kind Regards,
David
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« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2014, 02:41:18 am »



George, you were a BJ dealer?




Yes, for a few years.. It really was a lot of fun...
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« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2014, 06:55:59 am »

Dear David,
I am not been clear evidently, because you did not understand my meaning. I was not saying that you have to buy Imperial bottles. Let me explain how I see this matter. Suppose that a dealer offer me an extremely well made copy of an imperial bottle as gift. And the same seller has an honest common bottle of the 19th century, meaning by honest a bottle made for use, with some artistic detail, for 50 dollars. I would have no excitation, I would refuse the perfect copy and buy the folk bottle. In other words, if I can’t buy the original Monna Lisa I would never hang a printed copy of it on my wall. I much prefer the scratch made by the granddaughter of neighbor. A printed copy of Monna Lisa has nothing to see with art, it is the result of the application of a technique. The scratch of the girl is, regardless its quality, a form of art. I hate the I-would-like-but-I-can’t. So you know which value has for me a printed bottle. This in general. The sickle of a peasant of the 19th century, with its shape which is perfect for its function, a simple motif on the handle as embellishment, the patina of years of use and sweat, is much more artistic than a perfect printed copy of the Monna Lisa. To me, of course.
I thought that it was clear my meaning in saying that it is not understandable to think that a bottle, only by the fact of being a snuff bottle, must be precious and made with all the strict rules and artistic value of an imperial or high class object and then at the same time thinking that it can be found on Etsy for 20 dollars. It is a non sense, isn’t it? A bottle of jade, clearly made with the intention of trying to imitate a real snuff bottle, with a straight drilled hole and so on, is not a jade bottle to me. It is just a piece of stone and worthless. It would be much better if it was let as it was, just a pebble.
Then I don’t see the excitement in receiving a fake bottle. If you feel joy on that, ok, that’s fine with me, but I am convinced that you too would have much more enjoyment in having build up a knowledgeable eye and thanks to that be able to discover a fine bottle sold for few bucks at a flea market.
The bottles that I keep are mainly honest bottles made for use. I think that their value will always be the same or a bit more, never less.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2014, 01:48:16 pm »

Hi Giovanni,

You are like a mountain!  Cheesy 

The simple answer is, I can not enjoy a simple worn true honest bottle relative to a perfect imperial fake at the same price. If I choose to collect an area of something for real, the items I then collect from that area has to be extraordinary in some way (not cost or most beautiful or what not, it has to be special in a way that amuses me).

If the same situation were to be provided to me, I will choose the fake perfect copy instead. As long as it is sold to me as a fake, priced as a fake and I will enjoy the beauty of it as a fake. If anyone ask, I will proudly say, "It is an imperial fake, and I love it as I got it at 1/500th of the price you paid for a real one. And look at the details, it is perfect!" And best of all, I can leave it in the family room on the TV cabinet along with my kid's stuff without the stress or worry of it getting broken or stolen.

People think differently, I met parents of my kid's classmate during the obligatory playdate swaps... that think like you in this aspect. They were horrified when I explained to them that all my paintings (displayed) are prints. It was very funny to see their reaction.

From my point of view, I was "horrified" -more amused actually- that they did not let their kids enter their formal living room/dinning/library because there are too much "valuable" things that might get broken.

So, 2 different point of views. Which way is better? Who's is right? Who is more honest? What kind of lessons are they teaching their kids and guest when telling them "sorry, I don't trust you, please don't go in here" or tagging along as I was checking their ancient battleworn "swords".

I am sure most of their things are more "honest", but why is that any more honest then my honest prints or fakes, which I disclosed when we talked about? They are there for my enjoyment and not theirs, why should I stock up my house to impress people that I don't care about? If my kids and friend like me to kid with them, then that is how I stock up my house, because they are the ones important to me. I enjoy the time, I can make them laugh. That to me is priceless.

I let my family and friend have free reign of my house, my kids can go to any room they like and know how to behave properly. The only off limit is where I keep things that are dangerous to them. Which is the more honest way of living with family and trusted guest?

There is a saying I think (twisted by me or one of my teacher), how can the frog explain to the bird the joy of living at the bottom of a well?  The well is safe, it is sheltered from the element, there are no predator, there is always water, there is always food. Why does the frog need to climb out and be eaten by a predator---- perhaps that very bird----?

So, I am the frog, you are the bird  Grin Not implying you are going to harm me, so ignore last sentence for this comment.

People appreciate different things, have different goals, see the world differently.

I am planning to build up a general knowledge in this area, because I find the people on this forum interesting and different from most that I met before. No matter how much an expert I became or if I became rich overnight, the excitement/fun that I am receiving from a 20 dollar fake bottle will still be the same, as long as my mindset when buying is the same.

If I were seriously collecting, my mindset at time of purchase is not my current amusement oriented mind. But, I am pretty sure that I can still switch to the amusement oriented mindset to buy a 50-75 dollar photo lithographed bottle that have a nice joke in it  Wink

Seriously though, I appreciate you trying to help me, so I don't waste more money or have remorse of what I had purchased down the road. I am sure once I have a serious collector's knowledge, I will step closer to your point of view. But, knowing how I think, I am sure that I can switch thinking mode back to enjoying a 20 dollar bottle.

Kind and warmest regards, Please do not take offense, I do enjoy discussing this with you and none of it is in mean spirit from me.

David
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« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2014, 02:37:53 pm »

Hi David,

I think that you got the valid point again, People always have different mind set and the ways they appreciate things.

I also do believe that most of collectors in the Forum are having different collecting styles and different tastes on different bottles, we sometime argue as wel. most of the us never met each other, but Since  we chat every day online, and feels like we are all very close friends, I guess that makes our Forum a quite different from others.

We are trying to give you some suggestions on how to start up the right start point for the new collectors, but as you said, everybody is different, someone might take it well, some might not, ofcoz everybody has right to choose the way how they want to collect and the way which he or she appreciate things, but we only can suggest the most common senses for collecting, as far as how you take it or not, its really up to your mind, there is no obligation that we have to do our way, we learned the lessons, just wish the coming new collectors don't do the same things we did.

I had the same reaction at beginning when someone gave me the advice on how to collect, I thought that I knew what I want, and how I collect, but it really changed when I get more into it.  the suggestions I took from the Forum benefit me a lot on my collection, I don't have any big budget for this expensive hobby, maybe less than you, at least I never spend $2000.00 for testing a hobby. but after 3 years , I have built up a decent moderate collections, at least some collector fellas who have viewed my collections were impressed by my little collections were built with so limited budget, ofcoz the value of the bottles is higher that what I have paid, those all because I finally took the advise from all the Veteran collectors , and I studied hard on it.


As far as your photo lithographed bottle, I still don't understand why you like it. it only cost a couple of dollar to make it, and sold as inside painting at a price $50-70 or even more , I will have a feeling to be fooled  if I bought it. I would rather to take the family to have a nice dinner with this money instead of to be fooled. And as you said, everybody have different mind sets, as long as you still enjoy it, it won't harm much .

Again, those are 2 cents from me, you don't really need to take it seriously.

Steven

 
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« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2014, 03:24:07 pm »

Dear David,
ok I got your point of view, although very different from my one. Steven's following sentence is perfectly fitting what I would say; thank you Steven:
"We are trying to give you some suggestions on how to start up the right start point for the new collectors, but as you said, everybody is different, someone might take it well, some might not, ofcoz everybody has right to choose the way how they want to collect and the way which he or she appreciate thing, but we only can suggest the most common senses for collecting, as far as how you take it or not, its really up to your mind, there is no obligation that we have to do our way, we learned the lessons, just wish the coming new collectors don't do the same thing we did."
Kind regards,
Giovanni
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« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2014, 04:03:07 pm »

You are more than welcome Dear Giovanni!

I am thrilled that you quoted my 2 cents there, and I noticed that I didn't  write my english well, If I knew would do that, I should have taken my time to write it better.Smiley

-David,

One more thing to add, you might know how photo enhanced bottle made, its just like printing on the paper, the factory can make thousands identical bottles in one day. as far as collecting, we collect  history, unique, rarity, art, or sometime functionality, but the photo enhanced bottles are none of them. that is why we suggest not to collect them even they are $2.00 a piece, but if you buy it for enjoyment, that is different story, but don't over pay for it. If the fakers got more profit by making those they will make the better fakes to fool more people.Smiley

Steven
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« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2014, 10:10:06 pm »

Hi Steven and Giovanni,

Thank you, I really am taking your advices seriously and appreciate it. I will post the joke bottles next week and perhaps you can tell me what it might cost to purchase new from China. If it really cost so cheap brand new, then you can be sure I will never pay 50-75 for a 3rd one!

Is there a place I can buy more of these of similar style/quality at a good price? For enjoyment, not collecting.

The lady that sold it to me, said they had a lot more before but was gifted to her real estate clients (100 warrior, 100 adventurer, 100 animals, a few 100 others, bunch of kids bottle and 4 other camphor overlays that are larger than mine). The ones I bought were her favorites, that she kept till recently.

I would like to think that I fall into the take it well category, it is hard to explain. There is 2 phase for me, one is the explore different areas where collecting some knowledge and having fun is the priority (and if I get lucky, cool!). The next phase is when I get serious and will learn as much as I can before starting to really collect.

I did learned a lot from the threads, and I do take your suggestions seriously. But, I just wanted to explain the point of view for me.

Keep in mind I am only mid 40s, so it will be a few more years until my kids go to college before I can really seriously collect!  Smiley

Kind Regards,
David

PS Steven, I do not have a big budget. I made sacrifices in other areas (golf, fishing, trap/skeet, some travel, fine wine and dining, the latest gadgets, etc...) of my life to come up with the funds to test these areas. That is why amusing me while I do it is so important.

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« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2014, 11:21:09 pm »

Hi David,

I am glad that you did take the advices.

After you read some books, you can pick one or two type of bottles you like the most, and start to learn more on those areas, don't try to learn everything at beginning. we all collecting snuff bottles, but our focus are different. some mainly focus on stone, some focus on inside paint, some like new bottles, some like old ones... but I believe no matter what you pick, there should be one or two experts here can help you on it. 

If you like the modern inside paintings, there are quite few of source for it, like  Mike who has very good connections with inside painting artist in China, he sometimes post some good bottles by well recognized artist with only around $100.00 , those bottles are highly collectable, Good provenance, beautiful painted, well known artist...  if you got more experience, ebay will be a good place for hunting, but you should know there are many very experienced collectors and unexperienced collectors or dealers over there, you don't expect that you can find a treasure just by luck, you need get ready (knowledge wise) before going there.

I am sorry that you have to sacrifice so many enjoyable things just for your hobby, if that is case, you really need take your money seriously, don't be fooled by fakes.

Steven
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« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2014, 12:24:48 am »

Thank you, Steven. I thought about the long term fun, so I am sure it will be worth it down the road. You have no idea how seriously I take/respect my money, like I said earlier, I just wished I stumbled on this site earlier... I guess it is what I get for making impulsive decision.

I do have a vague few areas in snuff bottle that I am interested to learn more, but I want to wait until I finish reading what I had ordered first before making the next decision branch.

  Smiley Don't worry, I won't spend an additional cent on snuff bottles or bottle like things until I am done reading.

David

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