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March 29, 2024, 01:52:32 am
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Famille Rose Decorated on Blue and White Porcelain

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Author Topic: Famille Rose Decorated on Blue and White Porcelain  (Read 2248 times)
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Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush
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« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2014, 02:00:08 am »

David,
as I said, if you handle a bottle with polychrome enamels including also the iron red and black enamels, you will see by yourself why the wear is like that. It is matter of wear, not of damages. The wear comes from frictions, scratches etc. Both the iron red and the black are very thin, and their surface is rough and opaque. So everything in contact to them, even the tissue of your pocket, has much more grip than on the vitreous raised enamels, hence wearing them.
When I mentioned that the wear on George’s bottle has been one of the main indicators for its age, I didn’t only mean the fact that there was wear, but I also meant the quality of the wear. A fake wear is easily identifiable; a natural wear is one of the most difficult things to imitate.
Giovanni
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« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2014, 02:40:38 am »

Hi Giovanni,

I defer to your knowledge on the topic of wear, as I never handled any antique with enamels.

Did George already mailed the bottle to have you check the wear? Or perhaps another obvious question from me... it is possible to validate wear by photo? I know some people can validate tool markings (hand versus machine) of jade by correct angled photo, so this is a real question not an argumentative question from me.

Hi Richard,

I am also not convinced it is the new one you mentioned ( I actually don't think the photos matches any of the two play's key scene), the lady's sit posture (I am a little sensitive to a person's posture) in the 2nd photo does not look like sleeping. And I think she is in her room, not in the garden pavilion (at least of any that I had seen in parks or on mountains).

I would not think from the play of The Peony Pavillion, that a teacher seated with 2 ladies will be more memorable then when Liu Mengmei informs Du Bao that her daughter is alive again.

Note... I never saw these 2 plays... only heard of them and checked wiki... so hopeful the info there is correct.

Regards,
David
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« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2014, 02:52:35 am »

Hi All

I am not convinced that the motif of this bottle is about the Romance of the West Chamber (西厢记), but another famous play from the Yuan Dynasty, The Peony Pavilion (牡丹亭).

The 'bubble' in the second photo is usually to depict a dream scene. In The Peony Pavilion, the lead lady character,  Du Liniang (杜丽娘) dreams about Liu Mengmei (柳梦梅) in a garden.

The old man depicted in the first photo could be Chen Zuiliang (陈最良), the teacher of Du Liniang.

For Romance of the West Chamber, the main characters wereZhang Sheng (张生), his lover, Cui Yingying (崔莺莺), her maid, Hong Niang (红娘) and her mother. There was no elderly man role in the play as Cui Yingying's father was already dead in the story and the family was bringing his body back to their hometown for burial.

Just my observations.

Regards.


Richard






Richard,

Thank you very much for your observations...  The information I posted about the two scenes came from within a description of a Christies auction bottle.. Certainly not from any personal expertise or knowledge of these plays.. So you could well be correct..

I did a quick Google search in an effort to find images that show scenes from the "The Peony Pavilion Play", but no luck so far..

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« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2014, 10:06:55 am »

Dear David,
"Did George already mailed the bottle to have you check the wear?" No
"Or perhaps another obvious question from me... it is possible to validate wear by photo?" Yes, the surface wear can be appreciated very well in sharp detailed pictures of the surface taken under a proper light angle. It is not the case of the pictures of George's bottle of course. In talking about the quality and type of wear, I was referring to its distribution and different amount.
Difficult to explain here but believe me you will see that with experience.
Kind regards
Giovanni

 
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« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2014, 11:09:45 am »

Hi Giovanni,

Believe me, I believe you in these areas!   Smiley

And I also understand the feel thingy. I don't have any good ones for collecting arts, but do think I have some in other areas.

Warm Regards,
David
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« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2014, 04:59:58 pm »

Hi Giovanni,

Not to reopen the discussion of wear on this bottle. But I am curious, if the fakers send all these fake bottles to the labor camp or something similar (like Joey said in a thread, which got me thinking back then) or actually go to a poor province and paid a poor farmer a few dollars.

These people then for every single day, take it out, open/close it, rub it, put it back for 4 hours. Will this not fake the natural wear with no chips?

Then each day, the bottle is accumulating the wear of 3-6 months . Then after a month, then we have 90-180 months, so about 10 years.

Then assume, we pay 6 farmers per bottle to set up 6 shifts per bottle, then we have 60 years of wear done by different people to add some randomness to the pattern.

Then the first time this bottle is sold, the faker can get a good price

Is this a reasonable possibility?

Kind but Persistent  Grin Regards,

David
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« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2014, 05:05:21 pm »

Hi Giovanni,

Not to reopen the discussion of wear on this bottle. But I am curious, if the fakers send all these fake bottles to the labor camp or something similar (like Joey said in a thread, which got me thinking back then) or actually go to a poor province and paid a poor farmer a few dollars.

These people then for every single day, take it out, open/close it, rub it, put it back for 4 hours. Will this not fake the natural wear with no chips?

Then each day, the bottle is accumulating the wear of 3-6 months . Then after a month, then we have 90-180 months, so about 10 years.

Then assume, we pay 6 farmers per bottle to set up 6 shifts per bottle, then we have 60 years of wear done by different people to add some randomness to the pattern.

Then the first time this bottle is sold, the faker can get a good price

Is this a reasonable possibility?

Kind but Persistent  Grin Regards,

David

No David... Sorry, but not likely at all...
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« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2014, 05:22:29 pm »

Hi David,

The wears is not the only factor to ID the bottle, there should have so many factors put together to ID a genuine  .ofcoz the wear is the easiest factor to be faked, that is why you can see so many old looking fakes over there.

Believe it or not, there are quite of fakes there can fool the experts, I remember that there is a chinese expert in china , he can make the fake 99.99 %close to genuine, once he sent his new product to a very reputable museum in china, the museum accept it as a genuine Ming ware, after it being accepted and displayed in  the museum as a genuine Ming ware, he told the officer of the museum that ware was made by him, nobody believe it. and thinking he was just trying to get the ware back, and making a lie. But all those happened is because he is expert, and he knows what experts are looking for to Id the ware, so he can make it close enough to fool other experts or even himself.

Steven


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« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2014, 05:22:56 pm »

Then after a month, at 4 hours per day, you have to pay the farmer 120 hours. And the bottle looks 10 years old. Then to give to the bottle the wear of 2014 – 1850 = 160 years at 120 hours per 10 year you have to pay the farmer 120 X (160/10) = 1920 hours. How would you pay him per hour? One dollar? It means 1920 dollars. Dear David you are not a good faker!
The fakers knows more cheap ways to simulate wear. But luckily dear David it is not only the wear that the faker has to simulate.
Giovanni
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« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2014, 05:25:07 pm »

Dear Steven,
we did post at the same time, saying almost the samejavascript:void(0);
Giovanni
PS: why sometimes the icon works and sometime not? I drag the icon into the text. Sometimes I have the icon, sometimes I have the javascript.
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« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2014, 08:34:19 pm »

 Cheesy  Steve and Giovanni got me there for present day!  When I wrote that I was thinking in the 70s or 80s, the few dollars is for a whole month. The poor farmer will still work the fields, and the few dollars is extra income at night.

But, that is just a runaway thought linked to one of Joey's story.

David



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« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2014, 05:56:28 pm »

Dear David,
      My info referred specifically to the period 1990 - 1996, after we saw dreadful glass bottles (wrong colour shades and very poor quality carving, on plain and carved glass snuff bottles.
Best,
Joey





Cheesy  Steve and Giovanni got me there for present day!  When I wrote that I was thinking in the 70s or 80s, the few dollars is for a whole month. The poor farmer will still work the fields, and the few dollars is extra income at night.

But, that is just a runaway thought linked to one of Joey's story.

David




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Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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