Famille Rose Decorated on Blue and White Porcelain

[David]

I actually found that advice very useful, and skipped a few purchases (at the 100-200 level) because the fingers were out of proportion or hidden.

   But I bought a couple that were 12-20 bucks from etsy that violated that observation, so I can look at a real one (enamel on glass, and an inside painted one). It also gives me a feel for photo enhanced versus real.

When you add that to the way the worn is making it harder to evaluate, it is a little suspicious to me.   

[David]

But, I just thought of what Joey says... if this is for foreigner that visits China. Then a rougher craft, odd scenes and a big seal mark, might still make sense... as an old tourist bottle?

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Yes, but why would you want an old tourist bottle?
Joey

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear David,
that is not a tourist bottle. And believe me, marks are especially impressing the Chinese buyers, not the tourists (accepting that the tourists in general are not Chinese).
As for your first question in a previous post: “1) Is it normal for the wear to look like this? It seems like a lot of hand/finger and face areas are worn off, relative to the others.”: that is absolutely normal. Remember that, in judging porcelain ware, the analysis of the type of wear plays a very important role. In my case, much more important than the mark. The faces and hands are decorated with iron red enamel, also known with the French name “rouge de fer”. And the hairs are in black enamel. Well, those two enamels are absolutely more prone to wear than any other enamel. In particular, the old black is even vanishing by itself if not protected by a further transparent enamel. On the contrary, latest black enamel is more consistent and easily identifiable. In the case of this bottle, it is just because of the type of wear and type of enamels that I said to George that it is surely old, among other features. I don't found the scene suspicious, although I don't know its meaning.
Kind regards
Giovanni

[David]

Hi George,

Just to be clear, this for me is more of a learning exercise discussion, so please don't feel offended as if I am out on a mission to prove this is not an old bottle (I really don't know better, and I would like for you to keep getting great bottles for the hard work of starting this forum. And I believe you will, good people will always get rewarded in this life or next).   

Hi Joey,

If the tourist thinks that he/she is picking up an antique souvenir, will that qualify as a possible reason?

I recall one of the nicer seller that I meet on Etsy, she sold me a jade pendant that is a fake antique which her mom picked up in Peking in the 90s which she seeks out in chinese antique shops (she also mentioned that it is most likely a fake, when I asked her) during her trips. She believes it's hand carved.
https://www.etsy.com/transaction/229506162

I figured at (I think) 35, it is a neat trinket and besides I was always curious about the machine carved mass produced "antiques" and was wondering if this might be one of those as the 2 sides are too identical on the picture. Another track, I was also thinking if it is real jade, then just the material should be worth more than 35. And there is always the slim chance  that it actually is.

So, perhaps even in older times, people like her mom exists and want to pick up an antique on the cheap?

Another possibility is that unethical chinese seller, sold those as antiques to tourists or actually export it to the west and sell it as antique. Which might explain the (somewhat immoral back in the days) scene of woman daydreaming about a date? Or the unrespectful pointing or gesturing with fingers extended while talking with an elder?

Hi Giovanni,

Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me. I never would thought that different colored glaze will wear off differently. Why?

I can understand that cobalt or red is put under the first glaze (was it from the other site or here... can't recall, but these under the 1st glaze will be well protected, so agreed.), while the other colors are put on top of the 1st glaze. If the top colors are put ontop of the 1st, followed by a thinner 2nd glaze, then should they not be equally protected?

   I am going to run with my theory a little further. If we have unethical fakers now, what is to avoid fakers in the past to take advantage of "ignorant" westerner? And if you considered the history of treatments to chinese by western/Japanese powers, maybe it can even be considered "patriotic" back then! LOL!

If I live in the times, I will rather put my precious snuff in a handkerchief then to been seen anywhere near this bottle.

I don't know if it is based on a real story. But if the front and back are related... someone visits a respected elder... daughter of elder falls in love with someone and daydreams. I am not sure if it is the same someone, because I can't tell the features from the worn marks.

Speaking of features, is that not also a piece of key information for identifying which period it is drawn? The enamel on glass I bought (i think the last bottle or close to the last for this test) has eyes that looks good to modern chinese, but I think will horrify anyone from the past. Thin slant curved eyes on a "fat" face is the standard back then. But, I do like the work (for the price and my level of knowledge).

https://www.etsy.com/transaction/237041948

Warm Regards,
David

 

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear David,
on George’s bottle, only the cobalt blue is under glaze. All other enamels are over the glaze. If you handle a similar bottle, you will understand why the iron red and the black are more prone to wear than the other enamels. You will see that those two colors are thin and opaque while all others are thick and vitrified.
The bottle of your second link is super new, and it is just seen by the faces among other things.
Giovanni

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear David,
    Please tell the seller it is meant to be a 'BI disc', not a "bead disc"! 
Is 35 the suggested age or the price? I doubt it is jade, but it may be a very low grade.
We like expanding our knowledge, and that comes from dialogue.
    I was going to write 'informed dialogue', but the truth is, sometimes dialogue coming from ignorance spurs more than people who 'know' the subject.
    I'm reminded of the fact that I was sponsoring a dig in the Ela valley in Israel, and was walking around the outside of the site with the two archaeologists. I was ignorant of the fact that walled cities at that period (ca.2800-3500 years ago), had only one gate, no matter how big the city, and this was not a very big city (5.75 acres/2.3 Ha). I insisted that there was another gate which was visible to me. The dig director, a very good friend, without looking where I was pointing, said that it was impossible. His assistant, embarrassed to have to tell the guy paying his salary that he didn't know what he was talking about, looked at it to explain why it could not be a second gate. Then swore, and said,"Yossi, Joey is right! It IS another gate!". Yossi retorted that Sa'ar was not an amateur like me. Sa'ar replied that Yossi should explain what it was then. Yossi looked, swore, and said it couldn't be, but was. We did a 10 day 'quickie' dig, and excavated the main gate of 'Sha'arayim' (the previous gate being the secondary gate of the city). I got credit for discovering it, and it was due to my ignorance!
Best,
Joey

Best,

[Steven]

Dear Joey,

Another wonderful story.

Steven

[George]

Yes.. A great story Joey !

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Thank you. Google 'Sha'arayim' or 'Kh. Qeiyefa', for more details. I was able to spearhead a national effort to make the area around the dig to a distance of a km. in every direction, into a national park to protect our national heritage. It is the first DOCUMENTED Davidic site (from the time of King David, 3000 years old).
Best,
Joey

[David]

Hi Joey,

That is so neat! You lead a very interesting life, it must be full of chances to experience things out of the norm. I would love to see the dig director's face when he realized that. Sometimes, I am not sure if I read the threads for info or some of you funny stories or amazing feats.

  Hopefully, my questions are still in the reign of acceptable logic... perhaps one day I will be able to learn more.


I recall I paid $ 35+ shipping and handle for it. I ran the checks I do all the time and I think it is untreated jade (low grade like you said). But it is pleasing to my eyes and when held under the light there are veins of purple mixed in grey/green. It is actually the only time that I bought a "jade" under 50 from etsy that looks better than the photos.

I already did after I got it. But I told her it is a pseudo bi, as I did not think it counts as the center is not hollowed all the way, and the circle is broken by the carving of the dragon/phoenix/beast?

Hi Giovanni,

Thanks for the answer. I do have a follow up question on that... Assuming that it is really old and not a tourist bottle that have fake wear, wouldn't a thicker enamel makes it more easy to chip off? I tried taking and playing  or when fooling around with the photoing with the smaller bottles I have, and they are quite easy to drop on the table.

I am not saying there will be more wear on the thicker enamel, I was asking for something so heavily worn, is it reasonable to assume that there will be chips on the thicker enamel? Like on the lip, side, etc..? You know, the places where that bottle top maker uses a cut out of the records to protect?

Thank you both for the info and great inside story,

David

[David]

Ah, I just notice the metal lip...

[Wattana]

Hi David,

As usual, a lot of new posts came in during my night while I was asleep.

To go back to your post with two web links....

The first one, with the jade bi disc. This is clearly modern, hand carved, and made for the tourist market (as you say, no 'real' bi disc will interrupt the circle to carve phoenix/dragons up to the edge). It appears to be made of low grade jadeite, which explains the vitreous shine, as opposed to the silky finish seen on nephrite jade. Remember that jadeite is mined, and big boulders are not uncommon. The "valuable" jewelry grade part of a boulder weighing many hundreds of kilos may amount to less than 1% of the total. The remaining 99% is not necessarily expensive material, and can be worked into trinkets at low cost.

The second link (enameled glass bottle), is a modern product, made in the 1990s or later. Most are well made, and bear a Guyue xuan or Qianlong reign mark on the base. Yours thankfully does not, so just appreciate it as a modern bottle. Some of the best enamel artists are beginning to sign their own names on the base. I think it will not be long before  modern enameled glass bottles start being collected in their own right, like modern inside painted bottles.

Tom

[Wattana]

Another great story Joey...!  And a lesson for all.

Tom

[David]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the confirmation, I was hesitant to say it (jadeite) after missing pretty badly on my favorite bottle. It is amazing how big those boulders can get. I was happy this one is an older trinket, and not the new ones.

I will enjoy this one, as I am a modern chinese 

I read those thread, some of those are really nice... What will be the collectibility factor for modern enameled (signed/unsigned)?

David

[Wattana]

I read those thread, some of those are really nice... What will be the collectibility factor for modern enameled (signed/unsigned)?

Hi David,

Your question reminds me of a joke which goes something like this...

     Winter was approaching on the Indian Reservation, and the Chief heard on his radio that it was going to be a cold winter, so he reminded his people to start collecting firewood early.  A few days later he heard on the weather report that it was going to be a very cold winter, so he told his people to go and collect even more firewood. Some days after that the Chief heard that it was going to be an exceptionally cold winter this year, so he ordered all the men, women and children in his tribe to go and collect every scrap of firewood they could find.
     Then the weatherman announced that it was going to be extremely cold this year, probably the coldest winter ever. One of his colleagues at the radio station asked him how he could tell.
“Because the Indians down on the plain are collecting firewood like crazy.” 

So, if you start buying modern enameled glass bottles in a big way, everyone else will see how fast they are being snapped up, and they will start collecting them too, driving the market up! 

Tom 

[George]

Ok, found the info for these two scenes from Romance of the Western Chambers.

One showing Hongniang alerting Cui Yingying to the music played by Zhang Junrui on his qin, the other with Hongniang, acting as a go-between for the two lovers, watching the reaction of her mistress to a note from Zhang Junrui.

[David]

  Hahaha!!! That is a good one Tom! Unfortunately, with the reduction in market of 1 bottle the ripple I cause will be too little.

Frankly, I still have no idea what I want to collect latter on, as I tend to collect what I like instead of what I think might be a good investment. But, I keep a tight limit on per item and total per test area. 

The way I see it, is the time I spend looking around, learning etc... is an added bonus when testing out an area. Each time I test an area, I end up with a bunch of trinkets (which also makes wonderful gifts to family and friends, or rewards for kids), a number of things that I see "fun/art-in my twisted way-/potential monetary value" those I plan on keeping forever. So, I get to have a little collection to remember the time spend, some knowledge picked up over the test, and lots of enjoyment.

For now, I find the snuff bottles that seems to have hooked everyone of you very fascinating, the more threads I read the more areas that I see. I also understand the concept Joey mentioned, collect the best in a good area (or don't forget to diversify in quality, later on) and in the long term that will be a good investment. But, I need to collect at the level I can afford while still having fun.

Thanks for the answer.

David

[David]

Hi George,

I am confused... I don't see how the 2 scenes on the bottles matches with you mentioned...

are you saying

Hongniang alerting Cui Yingying to the music played by Zhang Junrui on his qin
as photo 1

and

Hongniang, acting as a go-between for the two lovers, watching the reaction of her mistress to a note from Zhang Junrui
as photo 2?

David

[richy88]

Hi All

I am not convinced that the motif of this bottle is about the Romance of the West Chamber (西厢记), but another famous play from the Yuan Dynasty, The Peony Pavilion (牡丹亭).

The 'bubble' in the second photo is usually to depict a dream scene. In The Peony Pavilion, the lead lady character,  Du Liniang (杜丽娘) dreams about Liu Mengmei (柳梦梅) in a garden.

The old man depicted in the first photo could be Chen Zuiliang (陈最良), the teacher of Du Liniang.

For Romance of the West Chamber, the main characters wereZhang Sheng (张生), his lover, Cui Yingying (崔莺莺), her maid, Hong Niang (红娘) and her mother. There was no elderly man role in the play as Cui Yingying's father was already dead in the story and the family was bringing his body back to their hometown for burial.

Just my observations.

Regards.


Richard