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My first bottle

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David
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« on: October 29, 2014, 10:38:53 pm »

Please note if you see the following notes on my posting. It means that those were purchased prior to joining this forum and starting to learn about this area. I will take one person's advice and only post (after 12/1/2014) those that I think are tourist/student bottle.

Please note: These were purchased prior to my joining this forum. All were bought prior to me taking a more serious view of learning about this area. So, please give constructive comments regarding, why this is a tourist/student bottle (if it is), and within this category, is it a good piece or not.

Hi George,

Thank you for letting me upload without limit. I will take some photos (front, back, side, top, bottom that your forum requires) tomorrow or Friday in sunlight as that should be a truer representation of a piece of jade.

Hello everyone,

The following link is where I purchased my first bottle from. It has some photos, but in my opinion makes the bottle's green color looks too nice. The physical item is a little duller.

https://www.etsy.com/transaction/229654431

After receiving the bottle, I checked it with Chelsea filter, Ruby filter, UV light (Nothing fancy, just a small flashlight in long wave), and 10x-20x loupe. I did not notice any evidence of staining, polymer, opticon, or resin treatment.

The only place where the UV light causes a reaction is at the "pit" on the back. I believe that it was a fix, where someone glued either a quartz or glass and then polished it. The glue around it fluorescences yellow.

The seller, said she bought this bottle at a flea market in Thailand years ago and the person selling it to her says it is jadeite. She agrees and I think she knows her jade based on her other items, and I also made the purchase conditional on it being untreated.

I skipped the specific gravity measure as I don't want to soak it in water. And I skipped the steel point scratch test, because this bottle have a lot of wear and I do not want to risk the point catching on a grain or wear. So, I can't say it is 80% possible untreated jade (that is about as high I am willing to trust myself).

The seller believes the spoon is glass, but I think it is white translucent jade and it looks original to the cork as I can not detect any splits or secondary holes.

The top looks original as after I raise it, I can visualize the pattern lining up. The cork is also old and shrunken, so it only stays in there loosely.

The cavity is not a cylinder drilled area. With a think stick, I can feel that part of the shoulders is hollowed out.

Please let me know if this is a real snuff bottle, possible age, possible price (I don't think I will ever sell it, as I like to fondle jade and if not for fear of dropping the cap I will use this as my worry stone, besides it is my first!), and whether it is Chinese, Myanmar, or one of the S.E. asian countries.

I did ask the seller recently to write a letter documenting her words, she agreed and will try to figure out around what decade she bought it. So, I am also waiting on that.

Thank you,
David
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 12:33:56 pm by David » Report Spam   Logged

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George
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2014, 02:28:40 am »

I could be mistaken David, but my guess is that it is not jade, but likely serpentine..

Having a simple hole drilled as compared to being hollowed out, is a sign the item was intended to be for display only. Not really a snuff bottle, and if it were jade, then it would simply be a decorative jade piece.

A simple hole drilled is a poor sign from the beginning.

I can not confirm the spoon material.. Never seen one made of glass before though.

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YT
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2014, 02:41:24 am »

Dear George,

My presumption is the bottle being modern jadeite. For the last few decades, jade has been traded for its weight thus hollowing will equate to lower price.
On the other hand, serpentine has a much lower hardness so it is easy to hollow.

Dear David,

If you do a cheek test, does it feel icy?

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2014, 03:18:37 am »

Hi George,

Sorry, I tend to be a little verbose and find it hard to keep my sentence concise as I tend to think 2-3 layers at a time. With the below sentence, I was trying to say that it is not a simple drilled hole. When I use a thin stick to probe the inside I can feel that part of the shoulders are hollowed. I was hoping to preempt the question as I recall that being asked multiple times on threads where you help the new members. 

"The cavity is not a cylinder drilled area. With a think stick, I can feel that part of the shoulders is hollowed out."

I will take a closeup of the spoon, and see if I can get an angled shot of the opening.

Hi YT,

I did do the cheek test and it does feel icy. But, I heard that it does not work well with jade over two thumb joint wide and thicker then a usual older carved pendant. Also, I am not sure how long to count for something this big (with a cavity) to feel the iciness disappear.

Thank you both for taking the time to look over my long winded post. I will try to keep future post shorter and not preempt/anticipate the questions.

David
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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2014, 03:22:38 am »

I would agree this is probably Jadeite.  Living (and working, when I am in Thailand) a stone throw away from Chatuchak (JJ) market in Bangkok, I still see these kinds of bottles regularly pop up.  They are indeed Burmese (Myanmar, to use the correct term) in origin and will typically fetch about 50-100 USD depending on negotiation skills possessed and what time of day it is.   I am told they are still being made today.   Note, however, that most of which I examine when I see them are poorly hollowed and not just drilled. 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 03:30:30 am by Pat » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2014, 03:51:49 am »


I did do the cheek test and it does feel icy. But, I heard that it does not work well with jade over two thumb joint wide and thicker then a usual older carved pendant. Also, I am not sure how long to count for something this big (with a cavity) to feel the iciness disappear.

Dear David,

I was taught by Joey to place another object on the other cheek to have a comparison. Even by putting a jade to compare with your Jadeite. If they are both snuff bottles, then there shouldn't be variation issues.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2014, 05:06:15 am »

Dear David,
sorry to say that the bottle is modern in my opinion. Because of your description, I have the feeling that you paid it too much. How much have you paid it, if you wish to disclose? Are you sure that the spoon is glass (never seen before) and not plastic? It is also too short according to the bottle size. About the hollowing, if the hollowing is decent by looking inside the bottle you should clearly see the light coming through the walls.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2014, 05:34:17 am »

Hi David,

The bottle material looks like a low grade of chloromelanite. Better grades of this stone display a rich dark green inter-mingled with even darker ripples, and without any paler patches.

This is a type of jadeite which comes from Myanmar, and is found in Thailand's flea markets, as Pat mentioned.

Tom
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« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2014, 02:10:13 pm »

Hi Pat, YT, Giovanni and Tom,

Thank you for the information. I paid 65 dollars for it, and after I received it, I like it so much I donated 35 to her store. So, total of 100 (that was my limit for a single jade trinket).

I will look up what is chloromelanite, as the fibers always looked odd to me in the past. Is that a way to identify it by sight?

YT, that is a good idea from Joey, I never thought of that, to compare to a known sample at the sametime. I need to make a trip to get a good sample, so will need to try that in the future, it will be interesting to see if I can notice the difference. Will this work for chloromelanite versus jadeite?

I will still take the photos later today or tomorrow. I think the spoon is white jade (perhaps blinded by my excitement of recollecting something from my teenage years) and not glass.

A little disappointed that it is not jade, but still very happy that I bought it. Otherwise, I would not trigger some nice memories and made me decide to get a nice bottle and ended up joining your forum.

David
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2014, 06:13:00 pm »

Hi,

I looked up chloromelanite, and it made me feel better, for a while I thought I was off by a mile. It is still technically jadeite, just a lower grade with too much iron? Or is it not considered to be jadeite at all?

Here is my first attempt at taking bottle photo with my phone. I reduced the size a lot and crop it, since I think it is pretty much certain that this is just a Myanmar tourist bottle with some age.

Thank you everyone for helping me on this one.

David


* image.jpeg (13.08 KB, 128x131 - viewed 97 times.)

* image 8.jpeg (13.38 KB, 133x132 - viewed 89 times.)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 07:10:27 pm by David » Report Spam   Logged

David

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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2014, 07:02:27 pm »

THAT is Chloromelanite?!
     I have NEVER seen a Chloromelanite bottle with stone that cruddy in my collecting career. Unless I saw it and didn't correctly identify it with the rich dark green stone I'm used to seeing in fine bottles.
     David, I assume that by now you know that Chloromelanite is considered a type of Jadeite by collectors. But believe me, it is so much more beautiful in a fine example of the stone.
Best,
Joey
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David
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2014, 08:40:48 pm »

Hi Joey,

I actually did not know (until I looked it up) that there are different jadeite aside from Omphacite.

... I think something clicked. Is Chloromelanite same as 墨 jade (ink jade). This is the kind that is completely black, where only at edges or thin carved area with a strong light that you can see green? Or the occasional black with green mixed in?

I agree the bottle is cruddy, rough, beaten up and even have a fixed hole. But, it is my first one so that makes it special to me.

David
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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2014, 09:07:10 pm »

Hi David,

Now that you have posted your own photos I see there is a lot more white than I realized. From the seller's picture I detected a criss-cross rippling effect that reminded me of chloromelanite, which led me to suggested it may be a low grade version of it. If you google 'images for chloromelanite' you will see much finer examples, similar to what Joey described.

Technically, chloromelanite belongs to the jadeite family of minerals. In my opinion your bottle is NOT serpentine. You can easily tell serpentine from its relative softness.

You might also check out another type of jadeite from Myanmar, called maw-sit-sit (no joke!).

Tom
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2014, 09:21:56 pm »

Hi Tom,

Thank you, the photos from the seller did show it in a better light so I wanted to take them outside.

I think I heard of maw sit sit somewhere... Thanks for the pointer, I will look it up then.

David
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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2014, 10:15:30 pm »


You might also check out another type of jadeite from Myanmar, called maw-sit-sit (no joke!).

Tom

Dear Tom,

LOL!!
It's only funny when you said "No Joke"

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2014, 10:25:29 pm »

Hi YT,

You would be surprised at most people's reaction the first time they hear the name.
Try saying it to yourself very slowly in a deep Southern drawl....    Shocked

Tom
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2014, 10:29:15 pm »

Hi Tom,

I googled it and think it does look like some of the picture there. I think that will be good enough for me on my first one.

Thank you,
David
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2014, 10:40:39 pm »

Hi David,

Your first bottle a chloromelanite.....congratulations!   Wink

Tom
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2014, 12:10:10 am »

 Grin While I am at it, I will just go ahead and upgrade it to a

A very important bottle, well used, most treasured (as evidence by the high degree of care and artistry of the diamond patch work), possible imperial jadeite mixed with mutton fat nephrite. Late Ming/ Early Ching.
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2014, 12:15:07 am »

That's what dealers call "having all bases covered"!  Wink
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